High Dose Vitamin C & Cancer

Background:

L-ascorbic acid (C6H8O6), known as Vitamin C, has a variety of functions in humans, some of which are not yet fully understood. It was discovered in 1930 by Albert Szent-Györgyi (Hungarian, half Romanian by descent), who as a result of this discovery received  Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1937. Note, that Albert Szent-Györgyi is the same scientist who about 20 years latter discovered the anti cancer effects of Methylglyoxal, discussed recently on this website in the following post https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=1471.

Vitamin CVitamin C plays a vital role in the production of collagen, which is the principal connective tissue protein found in tendons, arteries, bone, skin and muscle. However, humans can not synthesize ascorbic acid due to the absence of the enzyme L-gulonolactone oxidase. Hence, in humans ascorbic acid has to be supplemented through food and/or as tablets. The two major forms of vitamin C in the diet are L-ascorbic acid and L-DHA. (Ref.)

Nobel laureate Linus Pauling began a long clinical collaboration with the British cancer surgeon Ewan Cameron in 1971 on the use of intravenous and oral vitamin C and as a result they proposed the use of high doses of ascorbic acid (> 10 g/day) to cure and prevent cold infections and in the treatment of cancer (Ref.).

The anti cancer mechanism suggested by Pauling and Cameron was essentially related to the tumor microenviroment. They argued that cells are normally restrained from proliferating by the highly viscous nature of the intercellular space and that cancer cells may escape from this due to an enzyme called Hyaluronidase which normally would be not there if enough Vitamin C would exist in the body. (Ref.1, Ref.2).

Its amazing how all things are connected. Just a few weeks ago I was discussing about Hyaluronidase in another post (https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=1489) and now I realize that Vitamin C has one of its major anti cancer mechanisms related to the same.

However, in addition to this mechanism, Vitamin C has other anti cancer actions highly relevant which also supports its use next to chemo therapy. Indeed, it is widely accepted now, at least within the scientific world, that while at lower concentrations Ascorbic Acid functions primarily as an antioxidant and can protect cells from oxidative stress, at higher concentrations Ascorbic Acid acts as a pro-oxidant that imposes oxidative stress and induces cell death (Ref.). The specific mechanism that leads to its pro oxidant anti cancer action will be discuses in more details below, in the  “Mechanism” section.

In order to achieve the high dose required to exert its anti cancer action, Vitamin C has to be administrated intravenously. This is because when administrated orally, Vitamin C is absorbed only in very low amounts (Ref.). This low oral bio availability is also one of the reasons why some of the earlier clinical trials of Vitamin C in cancer have failed (Ref.).

As a side note, if intravenous administration is not an option, using liposomal vitamin C formulation may be a way to achieve same plasma levels of Vitamin C as that achieved via the intravenous route. Liposomal vitamin C can be bought online or formulated at home and administrated via the oral route. Here is a website where it is explained in detail how Liposomal vitamin C can be formulated at home http://qualityliposomalc.com/

Given its low toxicity and low cost, next to its serious anti cancer potential intravenous high dose Vitamin C was rapidly adopted by private clinics across the world to treat various disease including cancer. At the same time, academic research has been also preformed, indeed supporting the relevance of Vitamin C therapy in the the following areas:

  • Heart Disease (Low dose Vitamin C) (Ref.1, Ref.2, Ref.3)
  • High Blood Pressure (Ref.1, Ref.2)
  • Common Cold
  • Cancer (Ref.1, Ref.2., Ref.3 and many more)
  • Reducing chemotherapy side effects (Ref.)
  • Antiviral (Ref.)
  • Osteoarthritis
  • Treating allergy-related conditions, such as asthma, eczema, and hay fever (called allergic rhinitis)
  • Decreasing blood sugar in people with diabetes
  • Boosting immunity
  • High-dose ascorbic acid was also recommended as a treatment in surgical critically ill patients with septic shock (Ref.)
  • Etc.

After reviewing the literature, to me the following aspects are clear:

  1. There is enough scientific evidence to believe Vitamin C can kill cancer cells.
  2. Chemo sensitivity tests indeed indicate effectiveness of Vitamin C in about 70% of the tested cancer patients (see fig enclosed in the following post https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=1321)
  3. There are multiple reports published indicating anti cancer potential of Vitamin C in humans (see below section “Case reports in humans”)

However, it is also clear to me that when zooming-out and looking not at specific reports only but at large number of patients treated with high dose intravenous Vitamin C, the anti cancer effects become less visible (Ref.). Yes, some patients benefit from Vitamin C, a few are even cured, but many need to search for others options.

So my questions is: Why this conflicting evidence? Why in theory and laboratory experiments high dose Vitamin C seems to be effective for most tumor types while in real life is effective only for a few? Why some Vitamin C treatments are successful and other not in patients that all should respond to Vitamin C based on cancer type and e.g. chemosensitivity analysis?

Off course we can argue that even if it is effective for a few that is still highly relevant since we are speaking about life and about patients that are left with no options. But my question is what do we still need to understand and do in order to increase the success rate of high dose Vitamin C?

One simple answer to the above question can be related to the Vitamin C source. It can degrade relatively fast (becoming yellowish solution) and preparation just before administration may be the best.

I believe, a major answers may be found in this paper, published in 2014 in the prestigious journal Nature: Extracellular iron diminishes anticancer effects of vitamin C: An in vitro study http://www.nature.com/articles/srep05955.

Essentially, the article argues that that the anticancer/cytotoxic effects of Vitamin C are completely abolished by iron existent in the blood as the Vitamin C reacts with the Iron in the blood before reaching its target, i.e. the tumor, which would be the case for most of the patients. As a result, the authors suggest that in order to increase the chance of success of the Vitamin C therapy, the patient would have to be treated with Iron chelators prior to the Vitamin C therapy. The authorst suggested the use of Iron chelator such as Disulfiram (a safe and FDA approved drug used to support the treatment of chronic alcoholism), but other substances such as Baicalein, an extract from a plant named Scutellaria Barbata (known to also have anti cancer effects specifically in breast cancer) is also an Iron chelator (Ref.). Whole plant Scutellaria is available online as a supplement. On the same line, avoiding foods reach in Iron before/during Vitamin C therapy may be a good idea. Combining Vitamin C therapy with Gallium therapy may be another good idea. Using EDTA IV to chelate iron prior to Vit C IV may be yet another good idea (Ref.1, Ref.2).

Next to this, due to the mechanisms of action, I think there are a few more ways to improve the chance of success for high dose Vitamin C therapy, which I intend to discuss at the end of the “Mechanism” section of this post.

In conclusion, high dose Viatmin C (intravenous) has a great potential to fight cancer while being cheap, accessible and safe. As a result I would clearly consider it as a part of an anti cancer treatment strategy. However, according to the discussion above, in order to get the most out of it I would pay specific attention at the source, administration procedure and the whole treatment strategy around that.

Note: After publishing this post, I have received messages from readers asking if I am not positive about Vitamin C. I am actually positive and as a results we are using it. But with this post I intended to highlight not only the potential of Vitamin C but also the challenges we need to address in order to make use of its potential and be successful.

Update April 3rd, 2018: Thanks to Ergin for indicating this article “O2⋅- and H2O2-Mediated Disruption of Fe Metabolism Causes the Differential Susceptibility of NSCLC and GBM Cancer Cells to Pharmacological Ascorbate.”  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28366679 published in the Cancer Cell, one of the top scientific peer-reviewed journals reporting major advances in cancer research and oncology. This is a well researched article published in 2017 and co-authored by 35 medical doctors and scientists from USA stating the following:

“Despite advances in treatment strategies, 5-year overall survival in NSCLC and GBM has not significantly increased over the last 20 years. Here, we demonstrate that pharmacological ascorbate represents an easily implementable and non-toxic agent that may increase treatment efficacy when combined with standard-of-care radio-chemotherapy in NSCLC and GBM. Furthermore, the mechanism by which ascorbate is selectively toxic to cancer cells versus normal cells is shown to involve alterations in redox-active iron metabolism mediated by mitochondrial O2- and H2O2. As fundamental defects in oxidative metabolism leading to increased steady-state levels of O2- and H2O2 emerge as targetable hallmarks of cancer cells, the current findings support a generalized mechanism for the application of pharmacological ascorbate in cancer therapy.”

The above is an as clear statement as it can get n a scientific setting, coming from 35 medical doctors and scientists.

Successful case reports in humans:

Effects of High Doses of Vitamin C on Cancer Patients in Singapore: Nine Cases http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26679971 Click here to access a pdf form of the article.

Introduction. Intravenous high-dose vitamin C therapy is widely used in naturopathic and integrative oncology; however, a study reviewing its effects has never been performed in Singapore. This article serves to document administration of supportive vitamin C therapy for cancer patients in Singapore. Methods. The clinical response of 9 cancer patients of differing stages to the regular administration of large doses (25-100 g/d) of intravenous vitamin C (IVC; ascorbic acid) is outlined. Tumor pathology and patient health were verified by doctors who do not practice vitamin C treatment. Results. Cases suggesting survival beyond prognosis, improvement in quality of life, safe coadministration with and improved tolerance of conventional therapy, and deterioration in clinical condition following withdrawal of vitamin C therapy are documented clinically. Some patients experience the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction—the release of endotoxin from microorganism death resulting in pimples, fever, and body odor—for a few hours after the therapy, but these are resolved quickly with no lasting effects. Conclusion. Randomized trials of IVC therapy are recommended because it has minimal side effects and has shown promising results.

Intravenously administered vitamin C as cancer therapy: three cases http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1405876/

Early clinical studies showed that high-dose vitamin C, given by intravenous and oral routes, may improve symptoms and prolong life in patients with terminal cancer. Double-blind placebo-controlled studies of oral vitamin C therapy showed no benefit. Recent evidence shows that oral administration of the maximum tolerated dose of vitamin C (18 g/d) produces peak plasma concentrations of only 220 μmol/L, whereas intravenous administration of the same dose produces plasma concentrations about 25-fold higher. Larger doses (50–100 g) given intravenously may result in plasma concentrations of about 14 000 μmol/L. At concentrations above 1000 μmol/L, vitamin C is toxic to some cancer cells but not to normal cells in vitro. We found 3 well-documented cases of advanced cancers, confirmed by histopathologic review, where patients had unexpectedly long survival times after receiving high-dose intravenous vitamin C therapy. We examined clinical details of each case in accordance with National Cancer Institute (NCI) Best Case Series guidelines. Tumour pathology was verified by pathologists at the NCI who were unaware of diagnosis or treatment. In light of recent clinical pharmacokinetic findings and in vitro evidence of anti-tumour mechanisms, these case reports indicate that the role of high-dose intravenous vitamin C therapy in cancer treatment should be reassessed.

A case report from Gangnam Severance Hospital, Yonsei University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea, published at the end of 2015:

We report a case of regression of multiple pulmonary metastases, which originated from hepatocellular carcinoma after treatment with intravenous administration of high-dose vitamin C. A 74-year-old woman presented to the clinic for her cancer-related symptoms such as general weakness and anorexia. After undergoing initial transarterial chemoembolization (TACE), local recurrence with multiple pulmonary metastases was found. She refused further conventional therapy, including sorafenib tosylate (Nexavar). She did receive high doses of vitamin C (70 g), which were administered into a peripheral vein twice a week for 10 months, and multiple pulmonary metastases were observed to have completely regressed. She then underwent subsequent TACE, resulting in remission of her primary hepatocellular carcinoma. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26256994

Here  is an article published in 2000 including several case reports, most of which lead to complete remission:

  • A case report on adenocarcinoma of his right kidney: One of us (HDR) reported positive effects of vitamin C therapy in a patient with adenocarcinoma of the kidney in 1990.4 This report described a 70-year-old white male diagnosed with adenocarcinoma of his right kidney. Shortly after right nephrectomy, he developed metastatic lesions in the liver and lung. The patient elected not to proceed with standard methods of treatment. Upon his request, he began intravenous vitamin C treatment, starting at 30 grams twice per week. Six weeks after initiation of therapy, reports indicated that the patient was feeling well, his exam was normal, and his metastases were shrinking. Fifteen months after initial therapy, the patient’s oncologist reported the patient was feeling well with absolutely no signs of progressive cancer. The patient remained cancer-free for 14 years. He died of congestive heart failure at the age of 84.
    .
  • Another case report in metastatic renal cell carcinoma patient publish in 1998: The patient was a 52-year-old white female from Wisconsin diagnosed with non-metastatic disease in September 1995. In October 1996, eight metastatic lung lesions were found: seven in the right lung and one in the left (measuring between 1-3 cm). The patient chose not to undergo chemotherapy or radiation treatments. The patient was started on intravenous vitamin C and specific oral nutrient supplements to correct diagnosed deficiencies and a broad-spectrum oral nutritional supplement in October, 1996. The initial dose of intravenous vitamin C was 15 grams, subsequently increased to 65 grams after two weeks. The patient was given two infusions per week. Intravenous vitamin C treatments were continued until June 6, 1997. An x-ray taken at that time revealed resolution of all but one lung metastases. The patient discontinued intravenous vitamin C infusions at that time and continued taking the broad-spectrum oral nutritional supplement. A radiology report on a chest x-ray taken January 15, 1998, stated that no significant infiltrate was evident, and there was resolution of the left upper lobe lung metastasis. In February, 1999 a chest xray showed no lung masses, and the patient reported being well at that time.
    .
  • for more case reports please read the following reference http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2000/pdf/2000-v15n04-p201.pdf

A 12 Week, Open Label, Phase I/IIa Study Using Apatone® for the Treatment of Prostate Cancer Patients Who Have Failed Standard Therapy http://www.medsci.org/v05p0062.htm

Purpose: To evaluate the safety and efficacy of oral Apatone® (Vitamin C and Vitamin K3) administration in the treatment of prostate cancer in patients who failed standard therapy.
Materials and Methods: Seventeen patients with 2 successive rises in PSA after failure of standard local therapy were treated with (5,000 mg of VC and 50 mg of VK3each day) for a period of 12 weeks. Prostate Specific Antigen (PSA) levels, PSA velocity (PSAV) and PSA doubling times (PSADT) were calculated before and during treatment at 6 week intervals. Following the initial 12 week trial, 15 of 17 patients opted to continue treatment for an additional period ranging from 6 to 24 months. PSA values were followed for these patients.
Results: At the conclusion of the 12 week treatment period, PSAV decreased and PSADT increased in 13 of 17 patients (p ≤ 0.05). There were no dose-limiting adverse effects. Of the 15 patients who continued on Apatone after 12 weeks, only 1 death occurred after 14 months of treatment.
Conclusion: Apatone showed promise in delaying biochemical progression in this group of end stage prostate cancer patients.

High-Dose Intravenous Vitamin C Combined with Cytotoxic Chemotherapy in Patients with Advanced Cancer: A Phase I-II Clinical Trial http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4388666/

Phase I clinical trial of i.v. ascorbic acid in advanced malignancy http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/11/1969.full

Two patients at the 0.6-g/kg dose (one with prostate cancer and the other with epidermoid carcinoma) received greater than six cycles of ascorbic acid with stable disease (less than a 20% reduction and less than a 20% increase in the sum of the two perpendicular diameters of the target lesion and the appearance of no new lesions).

Mechanism:

Numerous reports are available in literature on cytotoxic and anti-carcinogenic effect of ascorbic acid and its derivatives in different tumor model systems. However, the molecular mechanisms underlying the anti-carcinogenic potential of ascorbic acid are not completely elucidated. Below are some of the major mechanisms that may be associate with anti-carcinogenic effect of ascorbic acid:

  • Pauling and Cameron believed that the mechanism behind the anti cancer activity of Vitamin C is the following:
    • Cells are normally restrained from proliferating by the highly viscous nature of the intercellular space.
    • In order to proliferate, cells must escape from this restraint by depolymerizing the glycosaminoglycans (including Hyaluronic acid) in their immediate environment.
    • This process is accomplished by the release of the enzyme hyaluronidase and is kept in check by physiological hyaluronidase inhibitor.
    • Hyaluronidase inhibitor is an oligoglycosaminoglycan that requires ascorbic acid for its synthesis, and perhaps incorporates residues of ascorbic acid. Note that the role of Hyaluronic acid in cancer was specifically discussed in a previous post on this website  https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=1489 The authors argued that this hypothesis provides an explanation for the pathogenesis of scurvy. It explains the increased requirement for ascorbic acid that occurs in many cell proliferative diseases, including cancer. It indicates the existence of a basic underlying mechanism in many pathological states and suggests a common pattern of treatment. (Ref.)
    • Therefore providing Vitamin C, oligoglycosaminoglycan inhibits Hyaluronidase and cancer cells remain isolated, and at some point die.
      .
  • The second major mechanism refers to the pro oxidant action of Vitamin C and is the following:
    • Epithelial tumors appear to rely on superoxide (inflammation) which is produced by non-neoplastic stromal cells (Ref.) to oxidize the ascorbic acid (AA) to DHA (Ref.).
    • Because of the structural resemblance of dehydroascorbic acid (DHA, the oxidized form of vitamin C) to glucose, DHA can enter the tumor cells through the GLUT transporters and accumulate inside (Ref.).
      • Therefore there are two steps that have to happen in order for AA to exert its anti cancer effect: 1) stromal cells/fibroblast oxidizing AA to DHA by superoxide anions produced by the cells in the stromal (Ref.); 2)DHA to enter the cancer cells via GLUT1. (Ref.)
    • When dehydroascorbate acid enters cancer cells, glutathione turned the dehydroascorbate back into ascorbic acid (vitamin C), which is not allowed to move out of cancer cells, i.e. is not transportable through the bidirectional GLUTs.
      • This by itself is an anti cancer mechanims as the conversion of AA in DHA will consume glutathione required in the cancer cell to cope with the usual high levels of ROS in cancer cells
    • This ascorbic acid is converted to dehydroascorbate again and produces H2O2, which destroy cancer cells (via reaction with the elevated Cooper (Ref.) and Iron concentrations in tumors, leading to generation of ROS).
      .
  • Other relevant mechanisms:
    • high doses of ascorbate can reduce inflammatory cytokine levels in cancer patients
    • Antiangiogenesis effects: Suppression of NO (nitric oxide) generation appeared to be one of the mechanisms by which AA mediated angiostatic effects (Ref.)

As promised above here are a few more ideas to improve the effectiveness of Vitamin C (next to the iron chelation):

  • prior to Vitamin C administration, increase blood oxygen in order to support the AA conversion to DHA (e.g. ozon theraphy, etc.)
  • avoid sugar prior to Vitamin C administrations in order to potentially activate even more GLUT1 receptors through which DHA enters cancer cells
  • avoid any potential GLUT1 inhibitors prior to Vit C administration
  • avoid anti oxidant therapies around Vit C administration
  • include pro oxidant therapies such as 3BP, DCA, etc.

Pharmacokinetics:

Hoffer, et al. reported that when 1.5 g/kg of vitamin C was administered in humans, plasma concentrations over 10 mM could be maintained for 4.5 hours (Ref.)

Other relevant points:

  • pH influences the stability of ascorbic acid. It exhibits maximal stability between pH 4 and 6 (Ref.)
  • DHA is very unstable. DHA taken up or generated in the matrix must be reduced back to ascorbate, otherwise, in physiological conditions, it is lost within minutes.

Toxicity:

High-dose vitamin C therapy should be avoided in patients with renal failure or renal insufficiency, and in patients undergoing dialysis (Ref.).

Due to the chelating effect of IVC, some patients may complain of shakiness due to low calcium or magnesium. An additional 1.0 mL of MgCl added to the IVC solution will usually resolve this. If severe, it can be treated with an IV push of 10 mL’s of calcium gluconate, 1.0 mL per minute. (Ref.)

Synergy:

Vtamin K2 and K3 (Ref.1) Indeed Menadione is known to induce extensive GSH depletion (Ref.).

Combining a glycolisis inhibitor such as Vit C, with a mitochondria inhibitor such as Doxycicline seems to lead to great anti cancer effectiveness:  “Vitamin C and Doxycycline: A synthetic lethal combination therapy targeting metabolic flexibility in cancer stem cells (CSCs)” (Thanks Alternmed for the reference.)

IV Vitamin C Dose and Administration:

In General, Vitamin C is administrated at a dose of about 1.5g/kg/day, or in a range between 50g and 100g/day. Usually it is started at a lower level, at about 15g/day and increased during a few administrations to the target dose. In general, it is administrated 2 to 3x/week but for active cancers, an initial recommendation of 21 days of daily IVC therapy is used by some (Ref.).

iv_vitcThe Vitamin C solution is pushed in an IV bag and administrated at a rate of 0.5 g/min so that 50g will be administrated during 100 min. Rates up to 1.0 gram/minute are generally tolerable, but close observation is warranted. Patients can develop nausea, shakes, and chills. (Ref.)

For reference, 50g Vitamn C are administrated in 50o ml IV bag and 100g Vitamn C in a 1000 ml IV bag. Some clinics are using NaCl IV bag but in general it is recommended that for doses greater than 15 g, the diluent should be sterile water to achieve a theoretical osmolarity between 500 and 900 mOsm/L (Ref.).

Sodium ascorbate is clear and dehydroascorbate is yellow – so if the solution turn yellowish it means sodium ascorbate started to degrade. To avoid the degradation during the IV administration, the IV bag should be warped in an opaque foil such as aluminium foil (in case it is not already opaque.

Here is a good administration protocol discussion: Vitamin C Research – IVC Protocol https://riordanclinic.org/research-study/vitamin-c-research-ivc-protocol/

Using EDTA IV to chelate iron prior to Vit C IV may be a good idea (Ref.1, Ref.2).

Note: Sometimes combined with DMOS & B17 in the same bottle – “Manner Cocktail”

  • E.g. 9 grams of Laetrile [Amygdalin/ B-17], 25-50 grams of Ascorbic acid [vitamin C], 10-15 ml. of DMSO (Ref.)

Protocols referenced:
Cathcart: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/civprep.pdf
Riordan: https://riordanclinic.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/RiordanIVCprotocol_en.pdf
Kansas University: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_EpU6QZ4EZtYWhFZEIxZGF6eEk/view?usp=sharing

(Thank you to my friend Fred for the links above, on the various protocols)

Here is an example of a treatment protocol when Vitamin C was used in combination with chemo therapy:

“The IVC infusion protocol was previously described [26]; it is based on a well-known protocol developed by Riordan et al [43,44]. Vitamin C infusates were prepared using ascorbic acid 500 mg/mL for injection USP (supplied as single-use 50 mL glass ampules) as a gift from Alveda Pharma Canada, Ltd. The stock solution was diluted in sterile water to achieve an osmolarity of approximately 900 mOsm/L. Any air bubbles formed during preparation were promptly evacuated. The solutions were delivered to the clinical research unit covered by an opaque bag, allowed to come to ambient temperature, and infused by calibrated infusion pump within one hour of preparation. Water and other drinks (preferably sugar-free) were provided and the patients encouraged to consume them freely before, during and after IVC infusions. The dose of vitamin C was 1.5 g/kg body weight when the body mass index (BMI) was 30 kg/m2 or less, and normalized to the body weight corresponding to BMI 24 kg/m2 for patients with a BMI > 30. The vitamin was infused at a constant rate over a period of 90 minutes for doses up to 90 g, and over a period 120 minutes for doses > 90 g. IVC was infused three times (at least one day apart) on week days during weeks when chemotherapy was administered (but not on the same day as intravenous chemotherapy) and any two days at least one day apart during weeks when no chemotherapy was given.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4388666/

Source:

Most compounding pharmacies including those listed here: https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?page_id=945

The price for a 25g vial – solution for IV – is around 15 to 20 euro.

Formulation:

If ready made IV Vitamin C is not available, the IV solution can also be formulated “in house”:

Dr. Cathcart’s youtube lecture on IV/C prep is the best tutorial on “do it yourself” IV/C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgi-7xPrCAg And an updated version of his written document: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/civprep.pdf

One of the best Vitamin C powder to be formulated for IV usage seems to be Quali-C brand. If there are better suggestions on other brands please let me know.

The best is to formulate before the administration http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9760591

References:

On the cytotoxicity of vitamin C and metal ions http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1432-1033.1983.tb07804.x/full

Cameron E, Pauling L: Ascorbic acid and the glycosaminoglycans. http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/224733

A new concept of a basic mechanism involved in cell proliferation is presented. It is suggested that cells are normally restrained from proliferating by the highly viscous nature of the intercellular . In order to proliferate, cells must escape from this restraint by depolymerizing the glycosaminoglycans in their immediate environment. This process is accomplished by the release of the enzyme hyaluronidase and is kept in check by physiological hyaluronidase inhibitor. There is some evidence that physiological hyaluronidase inhibitor is an oligoglycosaminoglycan that requires ascorbic acid for its synthesis, and perhaps incorporates residues of ascorbic acid. This hypothesis provides an explanation for the pathogenesis of scurvy. It explains the increased requirement for ascorbic acid that occurs in many cell proliferative diseases, including cancer. It indicates the existence of a basic underlying mechanism in many pathological states and suggests a common pattern of treatment. We conclude that ascorbic acid may have much greater therapeutic value than has been generally assigned to it.

Vitamin C in human health and disease is still a mystery? An overview https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-2-7

Stromal cell oxidation: a mechanism by which tumors obtain vitamin C. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10493506

Human tumors may contain high concentrations of ascorbic acid, but little is known about how they acquire the vitamin. Certain specialized cells can transport ascorbic acid directly through a sodium ascorbate cotransporter, but in most cells, vitamin C enters through the facilitative glucose transporters (GLUTs) in the form of dehydroascorbic acid, which is then reduced intracellularly and retained as ascorbic acid. Mice with established hematopoietic and epithelial cell xenografts were studied for the accumulation of injected ascorbic acid and dehydroascorbic acid. Most hematopoietic and epithelial tumor cell lines can only transport vitamin C in the oxidized form (dehydroascorbic acid) in vitro; however, when grown as xenografts in mice, they rapidly accumulated vitamin C after administration of radiolabeled ascorbic acid. The involvement of the GLUTs in vitamin C uptake by the xenografted tumors was demonstrated by competitive inhibition with D-glucose but not L-glucose. Because the malignant cells were not capable of directly transporting ascorbic acid, we reasoned that the ascorbic acid was oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid in the tumor microenvironment. Tumor accumulation of vitamin C in animals injected with ascorbic acid was inhibited by coadministration of superoxide dismutase, implying a role for superoxide anion in the oxidation of ascorbic acid. Whereas the epithelial cancer cell lines could not generate superoxide anion in culture, the minced xenograft tumors did. Our studies show the transport of dehydroascorbic acid by GLUTs is a means by which tumors acquire vitamin C and indicate the oxidation of ascorbic acid by superoxide anion produced by cells in the tumor stroma as a mechanism for generating the transportable form of the vitamin.

Intravenously administered vitamin C as cancer therapy: three cases http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1405876/

Cancer and vitamin C: a discussion of the nature, causes, prevention, and treatment of cancer with special reference to the value of vitamin C http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=US8128113

Aspects of the nature, causes, prevention and treatment of cancer are examined with emphasis on the value of vitamin C. The view is put forward that routine high intakes of ascorbic acid play a role in cancer by increasing the natural resistance of the patient; resistance of healthy tissues to metastasis by a malignant tumor may be the most important element in cancer progress and outcome. Extension evidence (clinical trials and case histories) supporting a therapeutic role for vitamin C in cancer treatment, especially if begun early, is presented. Increased ascorbate intakes by healthy individuals may also act to prevent the development of cancer. A discussion of the mechanisms of action of vitamin C, including its function in the immune system, provides insight into how the vitamin may work in the prevention and treatment of cancer

Vitamin C, Linus Pauling was right all along. A doctor’s opinion http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12154.php

Anti-cancer effects of vitamin C revisited http://www.nature.com/cr/journal/v26/n3/full/cr20167a.html

Vitamin C was first suggested to have cancer-fighting properties in the 1930s and has been the subject of controversy ever since. Despite repeated reports of selective cancer cell toxicity induced by high-dose vitamin C treatment in vitro and in mouse models, the mechanism of action has remained elusive.

Vitamin C injections ease ovarian-cancer treatments http://www.nature.com/news/vitamin-c-injections-ease-ovarian-cancer-treatments-1.14673

A clinic, expect in Vitamin C administration: https://riordanclinic.org/research-studies/

Orthomolecular.com: http://orthomolecular.org/index.shtml

Ascorbic Acid and a Cytostatic Inhibitor of Glycolysis Synergistically Induce Apoptosis in Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer Cells http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0067081#pone.0067081-Chen2

Vitamin C attack http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v12/n1/full/nchembio.1995.html

Vitamin C halts growth of aggressive forms of colorectal cancer in preclinical study http://meyercancer.weill.cornell.edu/news/2015-11-05/vitamin-c-kills-colorectal-cancer

Pharmacologic ascorbic acid concentrations selectively kill cancer cells: Action as a pro-drug to deliver hydrogen peroxide to tissues http://www.pnas.org/content/102/38/13604.short

Human pharmacokinetics data indicate that i.v. ascorbic acid (ascorbate) in pharmacologic concentrations could have an unanticipated role in cancer treatment. Our goals here were to test whether ascorbate killed cancer cells selectively, and if so, to determine mechanisms, using clinically relevant conditions. Cell death in 10 cancer and 4 normal cell types was measured by using 1-h exposures. Normal cells were unaffected by 20 mM ascorbate, whereas 5 cancer lines had EC50 values of <4 mM, a concentration easily achievable i.v. Human lymphoma cells were studied in detail because of their sensitivity to ascorbate (EC50 of 0.5 mM) and suitability for addressing mechanisms. Extracellular but not intracellular ascorbate mediated cell death, which occurred by apoptosis and pyknosis/necrosis. Cell death was independent of metal chelators and absolutely dependent on H2O2 formation. Cell death from H2O2 added to cells was identical to that found when H2O2 was generated by ascorbate treatment. H2O2 generation was dependent on ascorbate concentration, incubation time, and the presence of 0.5-10% serum, and displayed a linear relationship with ascorbate radical formation. Although ascorbate addition to medium generated H2O2, ascorbate addition to blood generated no detectable H2O2 and only trace detectable ascorbate radical. Taken together, these data indicate that ascorbate at concentrations achieved only by i.v. administration may be a pro-drug for formation of H2O2, and that blood can be a delivery system of the pro-drug to tissues. These findings give plausibility to i.v. ascorbic acid in cancer treatment, and have unexpected implications for treatment of infections where H2O2 may be beneficial.

Oxalic acid excretion after intravenous ascorbic acid administration http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3482487/

In our study, ascorbic acid was rapidly administered shortly after the infusate was prepared, whereas parenteral nutrition solutions are commonly infused over 12 to 24 hours, during which time considerable ascorbic acid degradation is known to occur. The present data are important because they indicate a remarkable lack of severe hyperoxaluria after massive intravenous doses of ascorbic acid in people with normal renal function.

Vitamin C and Doxycycline: A synthetic lethal combination therapy targeting metabolic flexibility in cancer stem cells (CSCs)

Here, we developed a new synthetic lethal strategy for further optimizing the eradication of cancer stem cells (CSCs). Briefly, we show that chronic treatment with the FDA-approved antibiotic Doxycycline effectively reduces cellular respiration, by targeting mitochondrial protein translation. The expression of four mitochondrial DNA encoded proteins (MT-ND3, MT-CO2, MT-ATP6 and MT-ATP8) is suppressed, by up to 35-fold. This high selection pressure metabolically synchronizes the surviving cancer cell sub-population towards a predominantly glycolytic phenotype, resulting in metabolic inflexibility. We directly validated this Doxycycline-induced glycolytic phenotype, by using metabolic flux analysis and label-free unbiased proteomics.

Next, we identified two natural products (Vitamin C and Berberine) and six clinically-approved drugs, for metabolically targeting the Doxycycline-resistant CSC population (Atovaquone, Irinotecan, Sorafenib, Niclosamide, Chloroquine, and Stiripentol). This new combination strategy allows for the more efficacious eradication of CSCs with Doxycycline, and provides a simple pragmatic solution to the possible development of Doxycycline-resistance in cancer cells. In summary, we propose the combined use of i) Doxycycline (Hit-1: targeting mitochondria) and ii) Vitamin C (Hit-2: targeting glycolysis), which represents a new synthetic-lethal metabolic strategy for eradicating CSCs.

This type of metabolic Achilles’ heel will allow us and others to more effectively “starve” the CSC population.

Disclaimer:

This site is not designed to and does not provide medical advice, professional diagnosis, opinion, treatment or services to you or to any other individual. Through this site and linkages to other sites, I provide general information for educational purposes only. The information provided in this site, or through linkages to other sites, is not a substitute for medical or professional care, and you should not use the information in place of a visit, call consultation or the advice of your physician or other healthcare provider. I am not liable or responsible for any advice, course of treatment, diagnosis or any other information, services or product you obtain through this site. This is just my own personal opinion regarding what we have learned on this road.

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320 thoughts on “High Dose Vitamin C & Cancer

  1. May I suggest a modification, in the second line top of page stands “Albert Szent-Györgyi (half Romanian by descent)” well, he was whole Hungarian and never had anything to do with Romania.

    1. Thanks for your suggestion Paul. He did not had anything to do with Romania but his father did as he was born and lived a part of his life in Târgu Mureş, Romania. That is why the statement in brackets which is intended to be a reference for myself. However, for clarity and to accommodate your suggestion, I added “Hungarian” in the brackets too.

  2. Transylvania became part of Romania after 1920, before that it was Hungary in a thousand years.This was managed by WWI peace treaty when Hungary lost 2/3,Germany 1/3 of their territories that among others gave us WWII.He was born 1893 in Marosvásárhely,Hungary. The city called Tirgu Mures officially after 1920.He or his parents had never lived in Romania.

  3. Paul, history, like cancer or like anything else in life can be seen from multiple perspective. Instead of debating history I think we better focus our energy on things that can help evolution such as finding new perspectives on cancer. I hope you agree with that and thanks in advance for accepting to close the discussion on history.

  4. High doses of vitamin C to improve cancer treatment passes human safety trial.
    O2⋅− and H2O2-Mediated Disruption of Fe Metabolism Causes the Differential Susceptibility of NSCLC and GBM Cancer Cells to Pharmacological Ascorbate.
    https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-03/cp-hdo032317.php
    http://www.cell.com/cancer-cell/abstract/S1535-6108(17)30062-4

    Vitamin C selectively kills KRAS and BRAF mutant colorectal cancer cells by targeting GAPDH.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4778961/

  5. This newest generation of Vitamin C research is very encouraging.

    Researchers are now reporting IV treatment resulting in 49 mM concentrations and therapeutically relevant concentrations that continue for up to 5 hours.
    I will be very interested to see how these results and further extensions might result in clinical outcomes in people.

    In terms of treatment duration, has there been reports where they could maintain within the mM range over extended periods of time (perhaps even days?).

    1. Jcancom-

      Good question. The original protocol administered by Cameron and Pauling for 100 patients was a very different protocol from which we use today. They administered only 10 grams, diluted in 2 liters, over the space of a day “very tentatively” (because nobody had done that before for late stage cancer), 5 days per week. The patients also took oral vitamin C all day. Although this rate (1g/hour) by today’s standards would be considered way too small to elicit a positive response they extended life by a factor of 4, on average. A dozen studies now demonstrate that the main cancer killing mechanism is by NAD depletion, or in otherwords cancer is starved to death. This explains how Pauling was able to get such great results: when staving something to death the critical parameter is not dose, but time. This also may explain why high doses are needed, because they result in the longest sustained millimolar ascorbate concentrations in the blood stream. We’re developing a pump to make Pauling’s original protocol practical (otherwise too expensive), plus add a number of other benefits. See the STEADI pump at http://www.InfusionScientific.com. IT is also important to note that the tumor response with his low-rate but long duration protocol was so pronounced that a number of patients experienced tumor lysis (sadly resulting in death). Although sad, it does demonstrate once again that time, not dose, is the critical factor. In talking with Dr. Hunninghake at the Riordan Clinic (which does 5000+ infusions per year) they’ve never seen a tumor lysis in the history of the center. It means that with patients with heavy tumor load will probably not be candidates for our pump, not until the bulk of them are removed, and then administration rate would be especially slow to start with.

      1. Dear lullabyman,

        Because your comment may also add value I published your comment, although it may be seen as a form of advertisement (which I typically do not publish). However, in order to indeed maintain the value of your comment please add references to support your statements regarding the work of Cameron and Pauling, the extension of life by a factor of 4, the TLS they observed and related admin protocol. Thnaks in advance.

        Kind regards,
        Daniel

        1. Hello Daniel – Sorry for the late reply. Here’s the reference you requested is something that wasn’t explicitly highlighted in the original 2 studies:

          1st 50 patients here: http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/NHC/studien_pdf/old/the_orthomolecular_treatment_of_cancer.pdf

          2nd 50 patients here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC336151/

          However, the 4.2x improvement is clearly summarized in this study in Table 1, row 3 (note that the entire table is worth consideration):

          Thomas E Ichim, Boris Minev, … James Koropatnick, Chien-Shing Chen and Neil H Riordan; Intravenous ascorbic acid to prevent and treat cancer-associated sepsis? Journal of Translational Medicine20119:25DOI: 10.1186/1479-5876-9-25 http://www.translational-medicine.com/content/9/1/25

          “Mean survival time > 4.2 times as great for the ascorbate subjects (more than 210 days) as for the controls (50 days). Survival-time curves indicate that deaths occur for about 90% of the ascorbate-treated patients at one-third the rate for the controls and that the other 10% have a much greater survival time, averaging more than 20 times that for the controls.”

          This was the first time IVC was ever tested on a cohort of patients approaching statistical interest (I try to avoid using the “significance” word), and according to the original studies, referenced above, they were quite tentative, as you can imagine …at the time even 10g intravenously was considered astronomical. It was dissolved in 2 liters and administered throughout the day. Since all the patients were stage 4, end-of-life, it should be expected that the rate was probably no greater than 250ml/hr, or in otherwords … roughly 1g/hr for the entire day. The exact details of the administration rate is never given, but all signs point to the fact that this was their protocol.

          It has been often suggested that (1) the very significant response which has been difficult to reproduce was the result of bias, and (2) they got lucky … it was a statistical anomaly yet to be repeated. However what is an anomaly is their exact protocol (which duration maximizing protocol has never since been repeated). I submit that they did get lucky, not in terms of a false response signal, but in terms of not only testing a phenomenal protocol under the wrong pretenses (their justification was wrong), but also in terms of inadvertently leveraging the most potent cancer-killing mechanism in IVC: duration.

          Incidentally, the link to the “STEADI pump” has been removed from InfusionScientific.com so you don’t need to be concerned about my post being a form of advertising. The proposed protocol is however in further development, and we will likely be using competitor pumps to do the testing. In the meantime you can read about it here: https://infusionscientific.com/2017/09/26/the-succeed-against-cancer-protocol/

      2. Many on the thread have followed the 3-BP story for quite some time. Some of these patients developed TLS.
        For 3-BP it is more a dose than duration problem. 3-BP can rapidly starve cancer cells of ATP which creates
        a very large amount of resulting cancer debris.

        I am beginning to more fully appreciate the value of Vitamin C therapy. It has so much potential and only needs to be exploited.
        For a treatment that is highly selective for cancer cells even at ridiculously high doses well into the mM, one does wonder why even better clinical outcomes have not been posted. Extended dosing, combinations … . I am disappointed that with all the thousands of patients that have been treated there has not been more innovation. There might be safety issues at the frontier, though this cannot be investigated when everyone sticks to the current protocol.

        I did not mention it when I posted, though I read of a patient online with severe cancer who had knowledge of IV administration
        and did a more intensive home IV vitamin C protocol who had a very good-possibly complete response over a few month treatment window.

        From what I can see they are continuing to ramp up IV Vitamin C treatments even after all of these years. Some of the early research talked about needing 2 mM for anti-tumor effects, then I see patients at 20 mM, the last I saw they maxed out above 50. The therapeutic treatment window might be on the order of hours. Considering the safety profile of vitamin C, one might think that extending the treatment window into days even without further increases in molar dose could be an effective strategy.

        I had not thought of the NAD depletion angle. I thought it was more ROS. On cancer compass I posted the idea of an anti-cancer strategy that replaced glucose with NADH supplementation. The thinking was that the ultimate fuel used by mitochondria is NADH; glucose is only a starter fuel that cancer cells that do not have access to OXPHOS must use.

        It might have something to do with having the patients in the clinic for such long periods of time. Extending out the treatment might be very helpful.

        1. You’re right that ROS mediated cell death is perhaps the main cytotoxic mechanism, but there are a number of problems with that theory … mainly that above 1 mM one would expect cell death to be a linear relationship. To some extent this is true, however, the data is very messy. I’ve read every study ever done on intravenous vitamin C, in preparation for this book: IVCbook.com, and the one thing I must conclude is that IVC is highly dependent on a number of factors, and most of them point to the idea that ATP restriction is a major part of the protocol.

          As for NADH, some of the studies that identified NAD depletion as being the major cytotoxic mechanism explicitly found that NADH supplementation served to rescue cancer cells from IVC treatment. Look at the links at the bottom of this page if you want to ferret out which studies those were: https://infusionscientific.com/2017/09/26/the-succeed-against-cancer-protocol/

          The OXPHOS route however is a crucial lifeline to cancer cells, so IVC simultaneous with Doxycycline (which shuts down the OXPHOS pathway) have demonstrated unmatched efficacy in killing off cancer stem cells in this study: http://www.impactjournals.com/oncotarget/index.php?journal=oncotarget&page=article&op=view&path%5b%5d=18428&path%5b%5d=59195

        2. Oh MY!!
          Do you mean that no one ever actually replicated the original vitamin C results to the letter?
          They just sort of gave people vitamin C oral or fast iv and that was that?
          And here we are 45 years later, and someone actually read the original papers?
          ARGGGH!

          It’s just like D said about clinic dosing, they are watching the clock and at 4:59 PM they want to clock out.
          I mean if that’s the way it is, why not just set up a 24 hour round the clock at home iv infusion?
          Have any patients been dosed yet with this revised protocol?

          I have been thinking about what you said about “it’s not dose it’s time” lately and this clearly makes sense.
          Cancer cells have a way of holding their breath for 2 or 3 hours; though they can’t manage to do that for days
          at a time. Articles that I have read recently talked of the ATP depletion effect and clearly if this is done
          selectively for cancer cells then the more the better. Considering that a range of animals have very high vitamin C
          levels all the time gives some confidence that this should be safeish in humans.

          I read the papers that you posted above. I was quite surprised what the standard of care was back in the early 70s for
          TLS. Amazing. There was no treatment? Those four patients had essentially curative responses and they were listed in the first article in the “harmful category”. Startling that no one has figured this out over all of these years. Did no one read the original reports? Also many of the patients did have very good responses while in the hospital on round the clock iv vitamin c and then when they went home on oral vitamin c they progressed. Could nobody piece that one together either (i.e. 24 hour iv dosing is likely needed)?

          Questions:
          -I have been unsure about tumor bulk and potential for TLS.
          How much of a tumor mass (say as a non-solid tumor) if rapidly destroyed would result in a TLS response?
          Perhaps 5-10 cubic centimeters?

          -This idea of a continuous infusion pump for vitamin C is brilliant!
          I am aware of other automatic iv pumps that could also be used. Is there some IP that sets your pump
          apart from the rest?

          -With extended dosing of iv vitamin c amping things up really might not be necessary at all, though I
          came across early research with a bromine derivative of vitamin k3 that seemed to greatly increase ROS produciton.

        3. I’ve asked these same questions … in fact I had learned almost everything I thought there was to learn about IVC until I noticed this pattern of a number of studies that kept coming back to this idea of NAD depletion when I thought … you know, I’m going to find out exactly what that original protocol was and what exactly Pauling and Cameron observed.

          It does seem a little incredible that nobody has repeated what they did. In fact I suspect it has been done on an informal basis for someone who was bed-ridden and nobody documented the results, just as an oversight. Probably many times (it’s been 40 years afterall and about 15,000 infusions are done per year many which are IVC). The patient probably recovered and it was attributed to a wide number of different which things they did, and in fact probably multiple things were likely responsible, but yes … this makes sense.

          I’ve tried very hard not to go conspiracy theorist, and especially since I feel like we owe the benefit of doubt to the naturopathic / alt-med industry, but we all have to eat and a part of me wonders how motivated I’d be to follow up on this if my business was one that depended on Joe, Mary, and Susie coming in 3X weekly for a $160 infusion for months on end. We’re talking about a deal where you give the patient a pre-filled pump, charge them $400 once (of which the practitioner only pockets $250, the pre-filled pump costing $150), and they possibly come back cancer-free in one week.

          I can’t really talk about the pump, and we’ve removed it from our webpage. There are a number of pumps out there that can do this, and do a very good job of it. What we’re attempting to do is something that hasn’t been done before, especially with intravenous vitamin C: act as the compounding pharmacy and ship the pump (which is disposable, like the dosi-fuser) pre-filled. Nobody else is doing that right now, and for good reason: IVC oxidizes 50% every 60 minutes once dissolved. So we have some IP to prevent that from happening. So, with or without our pump design, it’s a business model with okay numbers that’s wide open … but we have to create a market (of which cancer treatment could be a small fraction). Therein lies the challenge.

          Of course, I’m saying what I’m saying because of the public nature of the forum. If you know what I mean.

          ps -I believe a 5-10 cm^3 tumor could result in TLS if the patient is frail and the tumor collapse is instant and exhaustive. Also depends on where the tumor is. The concern has a lot to do with the health of the patient and their kidneys … the ability to deal with the debris.

        4. Wow!
          Does this need any FDA oversight?
          Could you go DTC?

          Is high dose iv vitamin c, considered a medical intervention or perhaps only vitamin therapy i.e. outside of regulatory oversight?

          It would only cost $450 for one of those? We paid about $500 for an enteral feeding pump by itself.
          In terms of the business model, you probably would want to think of establishing something like this for your
          clients. There would be all sorts of tricks that they could piece together that might be nearly impossible for
          a company to learn by itself.

          It was pretty clear to me from reading the first Pauling paper that they did have quite a bit of success.

          4 patients DIED of TLS and that did not alert anyone that something might be happening? That was the 1970s!
          Hard to believe. No treatment. No stop of the trial. Just carry on. Startling. In the modern environment, the death of a patient in a clinical trial would result in halting the trial and regrouping. There would need to be a big countervailing force for that not to happen.

          The thing is that if they had actually stopped the trial and thought about then someone might have actually figured it out. Those patients all had necrotic cancer masses! Didn’t that say anything to anyone? There should have been more medical oversight, so someone could have picked it up. Or all those patients that did well while on iv but then were sent home and did not do so well on oral doses. Didn’t ring a bell for anyone?

          My best guess would be that with continuous dosing, you really would not need much more of a push with other treatments to have a large response. Depleting ATP from cancer cells over an extended period would sooner or later result in an energy crisis. Literature talks about 15-20% being a point of no return for ATP levels.

          I read an online report of a patient who had access to their own pump and vitamin C supplies and had a curative response within a few months. Having control over the dosing and the timing would help. It would be best though for this to be done through an organized effort so people could learn from each other.

          I think for most patients the real value would be in having hand holding to get
          over the bumps. Most people would be OK with a premium for that, this is cancer
          after all. The two big concerns would be the sodium levels and TLS. Having
          a plan in place for people would be such a relief. For example, on the compass
          thread we talked about potassium and lactate monitors. It has to be worth
          a few hundred dollars right there to know whether you have hit TLS.
          In some of the research there were cancer patients who went days without
          anyone realizing that TLS was in progress. Knowing exactly when it occurred,
          what should be done beforehand for prevention, what treatment should be
          given if it occurred. Even the hospitals do not always seem that aware of it.
          Of course, for starters you really do not want to wind up in TLS to start with.
          In the modern context TLS, can sometimes be managed medically though it does start
          to cost quite a large amount of money to fix it once started.

          I have been reading up on the pharmacokinetics of high dose iv vitamin c.
          If you have any references for this, then I would be grateful if you could share them.
          One of the ones I vaguely remember reading maxed out over 50 mM. Do they typically
          give the infusion rate somewhere in the Methods section?

          Other issue that I have been thinking of is the NAD/NADH ratio. Talked about that on the
          compass thread. The NAD/NADH ratio is the main redox sensor of the cell. It also
          relates to mitochondrial biogenesis. Would love to have a better understanding of how
          iv vitamin C would move around these other cell parameters.

          Also question of apoptosis and necrosis. Some call it necrosis others apoptosis.
          This could make a fair amount of difference for how the body would cope with it.

        5. Anyone notice from the first paper from Scotland quoted above for vitamin C “the first 50 patients”
          that one of the patients that developed TLS had kidney cancer? Guess what kind? This patient did not
          even receive iv dosing but still developed TLS. The only one of 4 with TLS without an iv dose.
          ccRCC!!! Is anyone surprised by that? Remember from the compass thread “an apparent absence of mitochondria” ? I always thought that ccRCC would be perfect for an anti-glycolytic approach.
          No mitochondria –> vitamin c should have a large effect on ccRCC. Looks like this thinking was
          correct.

          Probably should be a warning for those with ccRCC about vitamin C. The article noted that the patients with ccRCC and TLS only took 1.5 grams per day for 10 days. That is not that much.

        6. Here’s another report of the 100 patients that includes some more insight: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC431183/pdf/pnas00040-0366.pdf

          I think the reason they didn’t suspend the trial with the TLS issues was (1) many of them were not expected to live more than a few weeks (the average survival for controls was under 50 days) in fact IVC qualifiers were that they had to be considered “totally hopeless” and “quite untreatable”, and (2) the overall outcomes for the IVC group on average were astonishingly good. Cameron expresses it was a matter of conscience to provide IVC for anyone who was a candidate because the average response was so good, and everyone on the staff (20 “young” attending physicians) agreed. I’m sure they debated whether to continue or not. There’ve been many criticisms of the study, but the incidence of TLS has not normally been one of them.

          We can learn so much from those early studies based on what we know about IVC pharmacokinetics and the various cytotoxic mechanisms (of which we know there are at least 7 different ways it kills cancer). Cameron stated in the first study that he believed the oral route is sufficient, which seems to indicate that all the patients previously had NO vitamin C in their diets (probably living on boiled potatoes) and so it didn’t take much to get initial relief. His U-shaped ESR graphs (and discussion about explosive growth after a period of remission) seems to validate the idea that they just didn’t stick with the IV dose long enough.

          I agree that TLS monitoring is a must for at-risk patients. We’re excluding those patients initially in our investigation, but I agree with you that if we know something works well enough to elicit TLS we need to do a better job of detecting and managing TLS rather than give up on the protocol.

          Dehydroscorbic acid significantly improves the NADH to NAD ratio in normal cells and H2O2 depletes NAD entirely in cancer cells. This supplies energy to normal cells why depleting cancer cells of energy. Almost magical when you think about it. Dr Hunninghake gives a great presentation on the mitochondrial function in sequence with NADH production to kill cancer. Well worth the watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph8iEx4Or38

          I think apoptosis is from ROS damage, and necrosis is from ATP starvation. I could be wrong. I am always interested in other opinions. If you want more citations about IVC related technology, here’s a 230 page book about IVC for cancer with about 250 peer reviewed citations: http://ivcbook.com/download/

          Won’t be free forever.

        7. Remarkable!

          The initial study from the 1970s clearly showed that vitamin C was an effective anti-cancer
          drug and this was obscured for at least 30 years. How could those arguing against it do so
          with a straight face and clear conscience when 4 of the patients developed TLS?

          This is a good point that was not highlighted nor explained enough in the first 50 patients article:
          how many patients first responded to vitamin C and then were able to be treated again by conventional therapies? The article noted that this was the protocol’s treatment algorithm.

          My thinking with the TLS is that it was such a wasted opportunity to show definitely 50 years ago
          that vitamin C actually was an effective medicine. I am very unsure what the thinking was during the
          trial. Looking back, what I would have suggested to cope with the TLS issue once it emerged would be to dose down on the initial day or two and use whatever tools available to see what the tumor response might be. The recent high iv vitamin C protocol incorporates such an idea. I would also put this warning into the patient consent form. By putting such information out there you would have the power of the crowd on your side to think it through.

          Also I would have went out of my way to find patients that would have such potential TLS responses.
          (e.g. ccRCC) The article noted that TLS was a “harmful” response without adding more emphasis on the opportunity. If you could dial back the response then you might even create a complete response. (With the 3-BP liver patient this is exactly how they coped with a near fatal TLS response.) The irony of course is that if such a safety measure had been employed, dialing back the dosages and the durations would have likely resulted in the potential of vitamin C from being discovered in the first place.

          If the Scottish researchers could have pieced together 4 or 5 such complete responses by pulling back from TLS, then the 50 year argument would never have happened. The TLS episodes were such a missed opportunity. Perhaps the compromise that could have been made to allow the trial to continue would be to have a concurrent ad hoc safety committee that could have contemplated what measures might be introduced to increase the safety, and possibly to harness the anti-tumor responses to help demonstrate the effectiveness of vitamin C.

          I am also confused about the dosing. In the modern context they would have done this as a phase 1b/2
          trial with the 1b phase in to find dosing and do some dosing route manipulations. They did some of that though I am surprised that they did not do more. There are a fair number of ideas that were left on the table.

          For example, none of the patients were dosed iv for more than 11 days. As you noted, there dosing approach was high resource intensive, so they were probably limited in what they could do, though my guess would be that if they had kept on going many patients who might have only had a partial or no response at first probably would have shown a response. It is possible that some patients are almost completely protected against high dose iv vitamin C, yet current research suggests that most cancer cell lines are sensitive at molarities with practical human dosages.

          Would have also loved to see what would have happened if they brought the patients back to the hospital for more iv dosing once progression were to occur. It seems odd to me that the patients were iv dosed in the hospital and often had a good response, though they were never brought in for more dosing when things went bad.

          Perhaps the problem was that as soon as patients get better they do not want to be in hospital. One way they could have avoided this would have been to have dosed in a prison or nursing home. The people would already be there and they probably would not be going anywhere in a hurry even if they had a complete response. Such a scenario could have been fully compatible with respecting the human rights of all patients concerned.

          I am surprised that much of the literature on vitamin C has missed so many of the important aspects of effective treatment. For example, I came across only one study that corrected for the ascorbate molarity
          that was actually measured in dosed patients. Why standardize dosage of vitamin C when it is more plasma mM that is proximal to response (tissue H2O2 would be even closer)? Another article talked of looking at genetic markers for CAT, mnSOD, eNOD etc. . Why isn’t this standard in the clinical trials?
          People typically have results from gene chips; why is medicine behind what is usual for average people in the community?

          The insight about longer duration dosing appears to have been understood by the clinics for quite some time. A report of patient starting treatment in 1993 (published 1995 Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine) with metastatic pancreatic cancer received 8 hour vitamin C infusions which helped control the cancer. Eight other patients were noted to have also safely tried high dose vitamin C with extended dosing.

          Are there any studies in mice that use an extended iv dosing schedule?

        8. If it’s more duration than dose, I wonder about vitamin C subcutaneous injections, or liposomal, or sublingual.

          1 g/ hour iv vitamin C is not that much (dose possibly used in the study). This might give 1 mM to start.
          It has a half life of perhaps 2 hours, so continued dosing might gradually push up the molarity through the day (possibly a maximum of 5mM?).

          Some of the other dosing routes might be able to hit similar mMs.
          Perhaps liposomal or sublingual?

        9. Hi Jcancom,
          I already ordered some liposomal vit C .
          Found this one – seems to be good reviews and cheapest I could find (includes 45g liposomal C)
          https://www.healthmonthly.co.uk/foodscience_of_vermont_liposomal_c?search_string=FoodScience%20of%20Vermont%20Liposomal%20C

          Looking for home-made liposomal instructions. Must get ultrasound cleaner for that and sunflower lecithin.
          Also before high doses of C this must be checked
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6-phosphate_dehydrogenase_deficiency

          My concerns is not to take to little to protect tumor and not to take too much to get TLS.

          Kindly,
          i.

        10. Dear Sirsna,
          Should you decide to go ahead with high dose vitamin C, i can only hope that you come back here with good news.

          My best and warm wishes,
          Alex

        11. Hi Sirsna-

          Just be aware when reading all about liposomal, 2 things: (1) All the research on it resulting in higher than normal blood levels (up to cytotoxic levels, 270umol/L and higher), they used lab-validated sub-micron sized liposomes. (2) All of that research also used patients who did *not* have normally very low blood ascorbates (ie. not cancer patients). In my investigations (like on curezone) I’ve found that cancer patients have a very difficult time, if are able at all, to achieve the same cytotoxic blood ascorbate levels. It should also be noted that simply eating lecithin will improve the efficacy of IVC … so to what effect nano-sized liposomes, or liposomes at all potentiate that effect, if at all, is unknown. I know you weren’t banking on getting the same exact results, but I do get nervous when I hear cancer patients think they can take a shortcut to achieve the same results as reported in what also may be a number of isolated situations quite dissimilar to their own. That said, homemade liposomal c will definitely be better than regular vitamin c. Just don’t expect a miracle, which can be said for pretty much every treatment, now that I think about it. I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir though, and don’t mean to offend.

        12. I should also mention that all of the data demonstrates that cytotoxicity *begins* around 300umol/L, which Hicket et.al. have demonstrated can be acheived by healthy persons using liposomal C. Some cancers of course will require much more, and the consensus among most of the IVC experts (with some rare exceptions who happen to be on Livon Labs payroll) agree that you really need millimolar levels (1000umol/L) to reliably kill most cancers. It is true however that if a cancer cell so happens to munch down on a liposome of vitamin C it will kill that cancer cell on the spot … but do we know that will even happen? No, we do not. It might happen, and perhaps even regularly, but it’s not something on which I would depend.

        13. sirsna, this article was a good one!

          I hope that you also can see the potential of vitamin C. I was not sure before, though after what I have read recently it looks very promising; while the current approach of giving rapid infusions of huge doses of vitamin C has no obvious logic. Few of such treated patients will have a tumor response.

          The one problem is that there are so many unanswered questions. If vitamin C is as good as I think it is, then why has not become obvious to everyone? It has been 50 years! How could it go unnoticed for so long?

          From what I understand now, if someone with cancer were to start dosing around the clock with moderatish levels of iv dosing ( perhaps 1-2 grams per hour 24/7) then after 3 or 4 weeks I would find it unlikely that good responses would not be the norm.
          The big concern would be TLS.

          {Having a glucose monitor that gave accurate levels of ascorbate would be such a smart investment.}

          One might not even need to do anything fancy.
          After 1 month, if nothing had happened, then one could simply start to escalate. Start adding in the combos. (perhaps vitamin k3, D Fraction, iron sucrose, … the infusion site has many others).

          I would not be dogmatic about it, there are many other treatments to try. Yet, the research suggests that vitamin C is a good one. Especially when it is used with the original 1970s prolonged dosing approach.

        14. Hi J, I think the main problem related to this approach is that is not practical both on the medical doctor side and on the patient side. Giving/receiving IV 24/7 would be both expensive and not that pleasant for the patient. So you really need someone convinced he/she will get good benefits in order to commit to such an intensive treatment protocol. And I think that is a serious challenge. Next to that, it will be very difficult to find a health care provider who can do that, since most clinics giving Vit C IV are of an “outpatient” type, which means they are not prepared to have the patient staying and receiving IV over night.
          So I think such elements represent a high entry barrier that makes it difficult for such a treatment approach to take off.

          However, making people (doctors and patients) aware about the potential it is a first good step, and I think that is great about this discussion.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        15. Hi Ieva & Jcancom (I always wondered about your nickname – J can communicate?),

          I found an interview with the guy who cowrote the chapter of a book Ieva linked above: http://www.doctoryourself.com/hickey.html They wrote an entire book about vitamin C treatment, however I cannot buy it now. There is a link to the book in the interview article. Here is another “white paper” about vit C treatment” https://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/CancerWhitePaper.pdf Interestingly, they combine vit C with Niacin, vitamin B3. I wonder if Daniel or anyone else on this forum referenced niacin as a cancer fighting substance? It was new to me. Hope all is well with everyone.

          I have been reading about intravenous vit C but it seems that people buy ready-made ‘ampullas’ (WTH is it called in English?) containing the vitamin in proper preparation (ah, vial is the name :-)) and they are quite costly. Isn’t it possible to prepare the solution from vitamin C powder, distilled water and sodium bicarbonate maybe? I’ve read about a patient who reacte well to IV vit C but due to financial reasons discontinued the treatment and died. How sad. Cannot one prepare it at home? Looks like a simple thing to do, no?

        16. Hi Helga, I know you addressed this question to J and Ieva but could not stop myself from answering 🙂 the answer to your question on preparing Vit C IV at home is YES and the how-to is addressed in the post above. It;s just that Vit C is cheap enough to buy – yet, not a large difference between buying ready made and preparing yourself in terms of cost.

        17. Hi Daniel, Thanks so much and sorry for my ignorance. Now we have to find a nurse who’d be willing to administer it at home. My mother is coming home from hospital on Monday. They didn’t even remove the ascites from her belly this time! I don’t know why. Maybe because we didn’t give them any money? In addition, I just found out that the obgyn-oncologist she was originally referred to was sentenced to a 3 year sentence for demanding money from patients upfront, before surgery. BUT: it was muted to a suspended sentence after his colleagues rallied on his side, saying that his experience is extraordinary and it would be a loss if he had to go to jail, instead of providing his wonderful services for the benefit of patients.It is absolutely surreal! Ten women testified against him and only one of them is still alive. The grossest case was about a woman who had only an income of about 70 euros/month and he demanded 50 euros for every consultation (all this at a state hospital). When her mother complained to him, he made a comment on her jewellery saying it looks valuable. That woman died soon after this, too. Her dying wish was to have this doctor sent to jail.

          An oncoteam will sit together next week to decide on my mother’s course of treatment. Maybe I should try to buy her phlorizin?

        18. Dear Helga, its a pity that something like this can happen … I know this happens in many countries and is not typical to your country. Unfortunately this is the reality of the world we live in … Moving to something more positive, in this world we also have good doctors and humans and fortunately I am in contact with some of those, and with some planning something that could be relevant for you mom. Specifically: during the past months I came in contact with a medical doctor and a University professor in US – they worked for >10 years on 2DG. Together we are now planning a clinical trial in Germany where 2DG will be used in a similar way as Phlorizin, alone or in combo with chemo. While I like Phlorizin, I prefer 2DG because it is available at German pharmacies ready for IV and it only costs 30euro/bag which is great. In contrast to other clinical trials performed on 2DG, now it will be used IV and in a special schedule that should lead to increased effectiveness. I expect same results as Phlorizin. It may take two months more to have the administration protocol finalized and have clear the clinics where it will be implemented but that may be just in time for your mom? What do you think? Once it will be ready, I will write a post about this. Kind regards, Daniel

        19. I am really excited about this 2DG.It is water soluble and cheap.
          But really wonder the protocol.

        20. Ergin, I find your observation very interesting and relevant regarding 2DG impact on blood glucose level, due to the reason mentioned in my comment below related to insulin resistance.

        21. Hi ergin. Thanks. I am glad to hear you understand the potential. Using a similar admin procedure as with Phlorizin may lead to similar strong anti cancer results alone or in combination with chemo and/or radiation and/or thermal treatments

        22. Hi Daniel,
          Now i understand the power of 2DG.I always looked from the other side.If used wisely,i am agree with you that it deplets ATP and open to all treatments like phlorizin.But phlorizin and 2DG are working very different and imossible to use them together.Fasting is essential in both.
          I have found a PDF but couldnt give the link here,here is the summary.
          “Two properties of 2-DG, inhibition of glycolysis and preferen-
          tial accumulation in cancer cells have formed the basis for further
          investigating the mechanism of 2DG for use as an anti-tumour
          agent. We speculate that cancer cells initially treated with 2DG
          exhibit a stress response due to a depletion of intracellular energy.
          The stress response results in increased levels of glucose transpor-
          ter expression and increased glucose uptake, which allows more
          2DG to enter the cell. As a consequence of high intracellular
          concentrations 2DG, hexokinase and hexose phosphate isomerase
          are inhibited, energy stores such as ATP are further deplete.”

        23. My question is:Which one does cancer cells prefer?Glucose or 2DG?When you will find time ,we have to talk about lots of things about these strategies.I have lots of questions in mind.I am really excited.Because i used 2DG and know it deplets blood glucose.What is real mechanism?Is it a fake sugar which enters cancer cells and has anticancer ability?
          Then how does it deplet blood glucose also?Unfortunately i will not have time this week.But curious to know!

        24. I know this is not the place about 2DG.But i am excited,what can i do?😀
          Increased levels of GLUT’s after 2DG usage may help other drugs like oleuropein which has glucose molecule.
          I am stopping here and waiting for your article.

        25. Thanks Ergin. For the first questions the answer is easily found in the literature.

          The last question related to your observation (2DG leading to lower blood glucose) is very interesting, and here is an answer from the literature:

          “During the three months period of 2-DG administration prior to tumor implantation, we observed a marginal decrease in the blood glucose level with a significant reduction in serum insulin concentration indicating increased insulin sensitivity (Fig 2E and 2F). This suggests improved glucoregulation achieved by dietary 2-DG without reducing the dietary intake similar to what is reported in dietary restriction condition [50]. Chronic hyperinsulinemia is known to increase the risk of cancer predisposition especially in metabolic syndromes [51]. Enhanced insulin level upregulate the synthesis of IGF-1 in the liver known to promote proliferation by facilitating the progression of cells from G1 to S-phase with reduced apoptosis [13, 52]. Dietary 2-DG could also reduce the insulin levels in the tumor bearing mice (Fig 8B), where the insulin levels in the tumor bearing control mice increased > 2 folds compared to the non tumor bearing control mice. Decrease in insulin levels, may be partly responsible for the anti-tumor effect, thereby reducing the rate of tumor growth as observed from the reduced BrdU and PCNA staining in the tumors of 2-DG fed mice (Fig 5A and 5B), indeed supporting this proposition.” http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0132089

          This effect on insulin sensitivity is very interesting and makes me realize it could make 2DG an interesting candidate for treating diabetics. This aspect also connects well with another post I wrote shortly discussing the relevance of insulin sensitivity in cancer. https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/addressing-gluconeogenesis/

          This also makes me realize that there may be a feedback loop through which 2DG is lowering serum insulin that in turn may reduce it’s absorption in the cell. Therefore, administration of 2DG together with insulin may be a good idea to increase 2DG absorption and thus anticancer effects. Indeed, there is literature addressing this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777557/

          I will post this comment on the 2DG page as well to keep the info consolidated. If you would like to continue this discussion let’s please switch it to the 2DG page.

        26. Hi Daniel ,I am extremely sorry about a wrong knowledge.
          I send you the article from private.It is about vitc and it is not a free article so i didnot write it here.
          2DG inhibits GLUT so we can not use vitc with 2dg.And you will like the article,2017 april.

        27. Hi Ergin. I would better use the new 2DG protocol with chemo or other strong treatments like some of those discussed including 3BP, Salinomycin, etc. or local hyperthermia, although it has good potential also when used alone. But I would just not waste time and go for a combo. Kind regards, Daniel

        28. Very exciting result!

          This thread (see last post) is claiming that very very
          high concentrations of vitamin C are possible into the mM. Until now it was thought that only 200-400 uM was possible. This thread used a glucose meter which can also measure ascorbate levels. They found that at about the 15 minute mark there was a spike with oral dosing to what I calculate as 2.8 mM (subtract the baseline finger stick glucose from the finger stick reading at 15 minutes (i.e. 128-177=49mg/dl ascorbate which equals 2.8 mM see lst post on below thread).

          This would be huge huge news if true!
          D, would you have your finger sticked for the good of humanity?

          It would mean that merely oral dosing could push you up briefly into possibly a therapeutic treatment range.

          http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11944&start=135

        29. sirsna, there is a member’s only area on the forum that I just suggested to you that has very specific and highly informed ideas about vitamin C and cancer treatment strategies. You will gain access once your request to join the forum is approved.

          It looks as though this advice will be of considerable help to you. The people on that forum have direct clinical knowledge of these new vitamin C variants.

          I hope this will help you!

        30. sirsna, I am so glad that I can direct you somewhere
          that could really help.

          When you gain access to the private cancer area there will be a whole bunch of things that you can see of interest. One of the things that this forum discusses is a liposomal vitamin C mushroom product that they suggest has powerful anti-cancer properties. As a guesstimate that should be truish, though you can take a look and see what you think.

        31. What do you think of the vitamin C Foundation forum? They appear to have a very deep understanding of a variety of vitamin C protocols with matching clinical experience. I hope that they can help you! There view on how to manage risk of TLS would be especially valuable. Best Wishes, J

        32. Thank You, Jcancom for guiding to this vit c forum.
          There is concentrated very much information about vit C. There is still much to read for me there.
          As I still do not have port in my vein, it will be hard to do i/v C for all day long. I am looking for oral vitamin c supplementation, obviously, that could be liposoma c. I don`t know my vit c tolerance level, so will start to experiment. But after next chemo course, which must be in friday.
          I also must find some cheaper place where to order D fractionated maitake. My liposomal c should be in post office. And also home made liposomal could be useful.
          I am tried to find about recommended dosages and they (vit C foundation) do not have strong recommendation for liposomal (as only : start with 1 t/s then double after 6-8h and so on until feel the reaction).
          I still must find about TLS managing (did not find that yesterday).
          So next week I must be clear about the process to do. (May be mixing i/v C + liposomal c is an option).
          I have FreeStyleOptium glucose/ketone monitoring device, must check how it represent vit C in my blood.
          Do they have specific coefficient for glucose reading and vit C?

        33. Hi!
          I had chemo week ago. It was few days delayed as planned. If the first chemo course was easy with fasting then this time I had hypoglycemia signs and my blood glucose levels prior chemo was 2,0 mmol/l and, surprise, after chemo blood glucose was 15mmol/l !!!, because, carboplatin is prepared in 5% dextrose (glucose) solution and not in NaCl. I did not now that. My oncologist says that in glucose some how it is better for absorbtion in liver. So next time it will go together with insulin injections.
          More than week after chemo I struggled with diarrhea – not good time to sart vit C.
          I started yesterday liposomal C. And taking it also in night and this morning and day. Lets see how much I can take it, as yesterday I had stomach problems again after second teaspoon of lipo C.
          I also take Basentabs, Metformin, Simvastatin (except few days prior/post chemo).

        34. Wow! 2 mM –> 15 mM! How long did you fast before the treatment? Wouldn’t the insulin counteract the supposed benefit of the 5% dextrose?

          I sincerely hope that the prolonged iv vitamin C dosing idea will be of help to you when you well enough for it.

          Were you able to contact the vitamin C forum about their mushroom product?

        35. and my blood ketons were 5.1mmol/l
          I fasted not so long, 1.5 days. But I eat low carb or practically no carb.

        36. Jcancom, how You understand “blood ascorbate” level (from PMID: 23885992) – does it matter, is supplementation of vit c consists of AA (ascorbic acid) or Sodium Ascorbate?

        37. Hopefully, I will have port after few days. That could be easier for me to manage some experiments 🙂 at home.

        38. As I said previously, my primary cancer was highly with hormonal receptors (ER100%, PR80%, AR100%).

          Now liver metastasis biopsy came back ER5%, PR 0%. but they did not test Androgens AR, as previously they were 100%.

          I sent biopsy material to laboratory in Germany for AR and also for somatic gene mutation test. Lets see what the answer will be.

          Looking back with my therapy : in past 4 years my antihormonal therapy was changed for 4 different antiestrogens (Tamoxifen, Anastrosole, Letrosole, Exemestane). Last 3 antiestrogens side effect is that they boost Androgens in my body.

          As soon as they putted me on stronger Aromatase Inhibitors the progression became more faster. Especially with Letrosole for this summer.

          So I wonder do my metastasis still have Androgen receptor? If it have then progression could be drived by Androgens, as my tumor mets lost other hormonal receptors and I got antiestrogens which boosted Androgens.

          So waiting for AR receptor answer.
          Kindly,
          ieva

        39. Hi!
          Finally I got my blood results for Glucose-6-Phosphate Dehydrogenase (G6PD). And they show that I have deficiency (6.6 U/g Hb), the normal range would be between 7.0-17.0 U/g Hb.
          As I understand I should not go very high with vit C.

        40. sirsna, I would double check that. From what I understand G6PD is a recessive trait and is fairly rare in women of Northern European background. It was found to be more common in those from Southern Europe.

          This is from the Riordan Protocol:

          “Obtain baseline and screening laboratory: … c. Red blood cell G6PD (must be normal)
          …The G6PD level should be assessed before beginning IVC. (At the Riordan Clinic, G6PD readings have yielded five cases of abnormally low levels. Subsequent IVC at 25 grams or less showed no hemolysis or adverse effects.) ”

          Perhaps there are interventions that could boost your G6PD levels? I hope that you will be able to elevate these levels so that you can take advantage of vitamin C treatment.

        41. sirsna, high dose prolonged dosing with iv vitamin C is too good a treatment possibility not to ask about the G6PD issue. Perhaps you could ask on the vitamin C forum? Best Wishes

        42. Hi, Jancom!
          I totally agree with You.
          I again looked at my blood report and there are small note, that the current blood sample is hemolysed. I will check that G6PD once more (it just take time 3weeks to 3 month, because is sent to other laboratory outside my country).
          BUT I have great idea – few weeks ago received my somatic gene test result (but I do not understand much of it). Just found, that one of 710 genes that theu tested , is G6PD. I must ask for full test results and there I will see what going on with G^PD. This must be more reliable as blood protein G6PD test.
          I also restarted to take liposomal C, have oxygen apparatus at home (5 L/min) and got paper which allow me to get to the Hiperbaric oxygen camera. I am also looking to take infrared sauna in days around chemo.
          Interestingly, when I take liposomal C, my blood glucose meter shows less glucose as usually.

        43. Good one sirsna! Great idea to check your G6PD genotypes. From what I understand G6PD is an X linked recessive trait which is typically rare in Northern European women. You really want to be sure that those labs are accurate. I realize that you are facing problems getting a good read out due to the lab situation.

          Wonder if a home test could be done with:
          https://www.alere.com/en/home/product-details/binaxnow-g6pd.html

          Vitamin C seems like such a good one. I hope that you will be able to try it!

        44. I also ordered had idea to take hydroxychloroquine (anti autophagy) , I somehow managed to get it from my local pharmacy, but was stopped with findings of G6PD.

        45. sirsna, do you have any updates?
          Vitamin C is now a very exciting treatment approach.
          I would love to know if you have found a safe way to be treated with it.

          Best Wishes for the Holiday Season and the New Year!

        46. sirsna and All on the Forum,
          Best Wishes for the Holidays and 2018!

          I greatly wish that suggestions on this forum are found to be helpful.

        47. Dear J,
          Still you are here for helping people.
          I also wish you a happy and healthy new year.
          And to all ftiends here.
          Ergin

        48. Erg, thank you.
          Best wishes to you in the New Year and beyond.
          You are such a shining light for our thread.
          I wished so much that something could help you.

          I hope it is some comfort for you to know that your experience has pushed us to make new discoveries. For me one of the biggest insights that I have gained is about Vitamin C.

          Lullabyman helped bring forward the idea that Vitamin C has not been applied properly: if you want results you need to go duration over dose. It is almost beyond my comprehension that this idea has been obscured for almost 50 years. This is an extremely important insight that others need to be aware of. What do you think?

          The Chemothermia Clinic was another bright spot for the year. Very impressive results and a great showing for Turkey. Metabolic medicine is moving into focus for me.

          I was thinking of what you said a way back about silver nanoparticles when I read this one. Wow! The synthesis for this is almost non-existent! Add dandelion root extract to silver nitrate. Notice the effectiveness of Dox and then see what the nanoparticles can do. We really need to start thinking more about chemical possibilities.
          PMID: 28699009

        49. Dear J,
          Thank you very much for your kind words.
          Now i begin dealing with another patient.
          Very interestingly same blood counts just like my moms last weeks.
          I think he has pulmonary embolism but very hard ro understand ,i will talk with Daniel to create a new post for him.After these happenings,i am begining to think maybe tinzaparin is must in cancer treatment despite its side effects.

          This company saya they do green synthesised nano silver and purest in the world and very very cheap.If you want to test it,i can send you
          a bottle.
          Regarding vitamin C ,we used 2 times a week,50 mg.I know people who used vitc without chemo does nothing to cancer cells.
          But maybe as you said they all used wrong protocol.
          I have lots of things to talk…
          Kind Regards
          Ergin

        50. Erg, this idea that the effectiveness of Vitamin C is determined not by dose by duration is one of the most important insights about cancer that I have ever encountered. This is right up there with 3-BP.
          Most of the time with cancer research it is all noise; this is all signal.

          You can watch my neurons putting this together in super slow mo in the comments above. {Start at the 8 month 17 days ago post (calibrated to today’s date of December 30, 2017) “This newest generation of Vitamin C research is very encouraging. …” and read downwards.}

          Erg, I know with cancer that you get to the point where you can’t even think anymore. You are looking for the needle in the haystack and lots of the time you miss it even when you find the needle. Duration dosing of Vitamin C is the needle. Cutting off the energy supply to cancer for a brief period will have only a modest benefit for the patient. However, cutting off the energy supply for a prolonged period will have a profound anti-cancer effect. There have been a few recent cancer patients who have had large anti-cancer benefit from this approach.

          You really owe it to yourself to set aside an hour and read the below article very very carefully. Make a chart of all the patients and their oral and iv dosings along with their outcome categories and survival. Essentially all of the 10 gram iv per day for 10 days then oral dosing patients did relatively well, while nearly all of those in Category 1 did not receive 10 days iv dosing; they were the placebo group. None of the patients who progressed were ever offered another round of in hospital iv dosing.

          It is remarkable! 4 of the 50 had a FATAL TLS response! TLS means that there was a near instant and possibly curative response to the cancer. Even today when TLS occurs it is thought worthy of a write up in a journal.

          Somehow the argument about the effectiveness of Vitamin C as an effective cancer treatment has continued for nearly 50 years in spite of the irrefutable supporting evidence provided by the
          TLS patients in the original study.

          http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/NHC/studien_pdf/old/the_orthomolecular_treatment_of_cancer.pdf

        51. Erg, yes I was not sure what you meant originally by the green silver nanoparticles, though when I started reading about them they were everywhere! It’s amazing an entirely new branch of chemistry has popped up. It looks like you can use this trick with almost anything.The research that I noted elsewhere talked of using Dandelion extract mixed with silver nitrate and this having more potent anti-cancer effect than DOX at 200 microgram/ml. Erg, do you have any information on the toxicity of silver nitrate in humans? Amazing that not much more than mix dandelion extract and silver nitrate was required to make nanoparticles.

        52. Unfortunately after i lost my mom i crashed my computer.So all those lots of works gone.
          What i know about nanonsilver is very different from bigger size silver (collodial silver on intetnet searching).The trick is about ionization also.May be nano silver cannot enter into cancer cells but after sometime it will ionize but there is no data when this occures?May be very late apoptotic!
          Green synthesised particles has no toxic elements like collodial big sized particles.
          But if you are interested i can call them for more data

        53. Erg, I started with article below. I then noticed that there were a whole bunch more like it. I am not sure whether this has ever went in vivo in humans.

          Amazing! “The maximum AgNPs synthesis using TOL extract was observed at pH 6.0, at room temperature by mixing TOL extract with aqueous solution of AgNO3 (1 mM) with 1:5 mixing ratio.” All they did was mix AgNO3 with TOL?

          PMID: 28699009

        54. Guys (J and Ergin), I am glad to see this exciting conversation – I will not interfere but I am following it 🙂
          I wish you a Happy and Healthy New Year!

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        55. Hi Daniel,
          I also wish you a happy and a healthy new year.
          I am highly excited about vitc.J did a great job.
          Here i am giving you and J. promise that i will work on vitc in 2018.
          Today i call Prof Mutlu.What he said?
          I got the licence of the production of vitc in Turkey.On 4th of january they have meeting with a pharmacy company.
          He said he has more data about iv vitc.
          FDA approved 25 gr vitc.Is it true?
          And only 20 days ago there is a new paper finished about vitc.
          I will update.
          Kind Regards
          Ergin

        56. Btw i now read the top,there are more data which you wrote months ago Daniel😀.
          If you can find time please enter this subject.
          We need your experiences.

        57. Go Erg Go!
          I knew that you would get it!

          Did you make the chart for the patients in the article?
          When you actually carefully think about it, you realize that many many of these patients surely did do much better than expected. The ones that were non-responders were almost all on the placebo dose of less than 10 grams iv x 10 days. Think what would happen if you dosed for a month or 2 iv along with enhancers (if needed)! How could the cancer resist this treatment?

          Erg, I think we both can see that this is Big.
          It is very BIG.

          I am not sure about FDA approval for Vitamin C. My guess is that Vitamin C is not FDA approved for cancer treatment.

          Sometimes the cure can be sitting right out in front of everyone and no one gets it. How is that even possible? The Vitamin C study was published in 1974 and almost 50 years of largely misguided research has not been able to uncover its value.

          The first replication tried oral dosing. Oral dosing especially bolus dosing clearly would be pointless.

          Now they have been trying high dose iv Vitamin C using up to 1 gram per minute for about an hour. That has also been found to be largely ineffective. Considering the idea of: Duration not Dose, it is not difficult to understand why it has not been helpful.
          Effectiveness of Vitamin C could be thought of as a function of (perhaps) E= D^^2. So, 1 hour of dosing gives you 1 unit of effectiveness, while 10 hours gives you 10^^2=100 units of effectiveness.

          I would love to see a treatment center step up on this one! From what I can see, alternative medicine is consumer driven. What the customer wants is what the customer gets! Why should people have to do this on their own? Cancer centers know what they are doing and they could help people.

          Erg, Best Wishes for 2018.

        58. J you are really a special person just like Daniel.
          Today i went to my moms grave and give a promise.I will never earn any cent from a cancer patient.

        59. D, I can’t think of any better New Year’s gift for those struggling here than the gift of Hope that prolonged iv Vitamin C dosing could help their loved one.

          I am very excited by this latest insight and I am so glad that this forum is here and that great people like Erg can help me!

          I wish you and all our friends on the forum all the best for the New Year!

        60. J this is very very interesting.I tried to read it very fast in 15 minutes but i will work on it word by word.
          1974 very interesting.The power of Oral vitc very interesting,Just i was loosing hope with metabolic treatment alone.

        61. I know Erg! There is just so much treatment power under the hood it’s amazing! There are so many combos that can amp it up. Yet, the 1970s study used plain vanilla long duration Vitamin C dosing. For a first cycle of say 2 x 5 days per week with 10 hour per day dosing at 1 gram per hour iv, I think it probably would make sense to simply treat without combo. Of course would need to be careful about G6PD and TLS.

        62. I have now moved forward to the Singapore results. Impressive. Of the 9 patients, while they tended to be earlier stage, nearly all of them had a fair degree of benefit. This study used 21 days of back to back treatment titrating up to 100 g at .5 g per minute to start and then patients were tapered back.

          It would have been helpful if the article clarified whether or not these 9 patients were the only ones treated or were the best results of their patients.

          I would also have liked to have seen patients staying with the their treatments after a response. It was quite frustrating to see substantial responses occurring only to watch the patients decide that they
          would stop treatment even with 300 cc of tumor still present. The clinic should have impressed upon the patients more strongly that they would be expected to stay with the treatment until the tumor mass essentially resolved.

          With patient 9 I was impressed by how much and how fast the tumor decreased. During the first 50 days of treatment there was nearly a 500 cc reduction of tumor. That is roughly 10 cc per day. I had not expected that so much tumor could be removed so quickly. During the next 30 days another 150 cc of tumor was removed. This would be roughly 5 cc per day. Our obsession with TLS might have been somewhat misplaced. If people would simply use this more moderate dosing approach , then the tumor could be gradually removed. Perhaps one could take 5 months to steadily wear it down and then when the tumor had been debulked, additional treatments with more potent effects could be included.

        63. Hi J, I would like to have a look at that – can you please share the link to the study so that I do not have to search for it? Thank you. Kind regards, Daniel

        64. D, sorry I did not mention it, though you noted the Singapore study in your write up.

          D, it is very exciting about all these new 3-BP formulations! There have been 2 so far this year! Amazing. I would love to see someone somewhere bring this to market. They should be safe and probably fairly effective. I would think that they would be a good bet. There are lots of cancer medicines that soak up hundreds of millions of dollars and never seemed to have had a chance right from the start.

          Interesting about the NLPR3 connection and 3-BP. US20170056448 A1
          Incubating T-cells in 3-BP prevents them from becoming immunosuppressed? Wonder if that could be done in vivo?

        65. Erg, Thank You! I knew I could rely on you!
          This result is too important to ignore.
          It seems obvious that a 90 minute high dose iv infusion of Vitamin C should have only modest therapeutic benefit. Starving cancer of energy/ATP/NADH for a few hours really would not be enough. Yet continuing such a treatment for days would almost certainly have a large treatment effect.

          You know how it is nowadays, people have an attention span of about half a second. The 1974 article really needs to be savored like a fine piece of chocolate. Possibly do some of the background reading with what has happened to it over all of these years.

          They did some oral dosing of Vitamin C in the 1980s and then said that Vitamin C was not effective. Nobody has ever bothered to faithfully replicate the original research. All those tens of thousands of cancer patients who get iv Vitamin C treatment are largely wasting their time and money. As noted elsewhere on this thread in one clinic over 5000 patients had been infused and none of them has had a TLS response.Yet 4 of 50 did in the original research; that would be equal to 400 from the above clinic.

          Erg, this is a very big revelation for me. I am so grateful to you that you are taking me seriously. For me a light bulb went off when I read about this. High dose long duration iv Vitamin C dosing should be a powerful anti-cancer therapy. I can’t wait to hear what you think once you have carefully read through and thought about the article.

        66. Hi J,

          so taken by your infectious enthusiasm about vitamin C and duration vs dose arguments by lullabyman. Sounds perfectly reasonable! I am thinking if I could help my mom with this approach. BTW, this article above you suggested for sirsrna to read claims that it almost makes no difference if the patient is treated only orally (but persistently) or also intravenously. What is your take on that?

          My other question is where to get such a pump to deliver vit C? And where to get the appropriate vit C? I am sure there are answers out there but a pointer would be nice and I am in a hurry.

        67. Helga, Best Wishes for the New Year (sorry I forgot to mention you. That is why I did not want to include a list). I am so glad that you took my hint about vitamin C! The problem with these forums is that great insights like Duration versus Dose get lost! Too bad the site doesn’t have a ticker or place where the important things could be stored!

          Could you give me the PMID number for the article that you referencing? Starts to get confusing with all these articles being cited.

          Helga, I have to admit that I am now reconsidering my view on vitamin C. It is not so much that it is ineffective as there has been 50 years of misleading science and we still do not have basic questions answered! Pauling thought that oral dosing could be enough, though I would have questions about that. The big problem is that we still do not know. A recent article that I cited somewhere on this thread from the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine (free online text) pleaded for the proper clinical work to be done with vitamin C. There are tens of thousands of patients who have been treated and the proper science simply has not been done. I would love to see a carefully and safely conducted trial in which maximal iv dosing over perhaps months was used (avoiding TLS of course). The Scottish trial only gave 1 round of iv and then when the patients progressed, no additional salvage iv treatment was given.

          The specifics would best be left to D or lullabyman. You might not need his specific pump, though I think it would probably be best to just go through him as he appears to have a very good grounding in the practicalities of vitamin C treatment. I am not entirely sure whether DTC would be legal, though he did mention that a doctor’s prescription would help clear any hurdle. I am also unsure about the question of a pre-prepared vial or a fresh mixup on the spot. I would tend to go for the fresh. (Who would want to drink stale orange juice?). Lullabyman could give you a better idea of any tradeoffs.

          Sorry for being all scrambled, though there was a post from the compass today that has me thinking.

          This new chemical (E260) turns off the FerT protein that is found almost exclusively in cancer cells and sperm. Turning off this protein results in a LARGE energy crisis. Clinical trials should start in about a year. However, the supplementary file for this article shows exactly how to synthesize E260. It looks super easy. There are 3 stages and 9 steps. If it were needed, there are a wide range of suggestions that D could offer that would greatly amplify the effects of E260.

          https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-00832-w.epdf?author_access_token=9eHzlxOkEbdTiV4LtMoRmtRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MmArZo0KfMWgeAaEW3EneijCjT0zDQKl4A-GCOBSdl1OmvuVzAuWTJETCPbN-HBF7W7m_hFAesWnjOF8P2m_5RegVngi8NcWBtlrl2QXHtsw%3D%3D

        68. Hi J,

          Thanks for responding. I did look at the referenced article about E260 and the supplementary material but couldn’t find any clear instructions as to how to synthesise the compound. Are you sure you saw it in this paper? In any case, I have only a kitchen at my disposal 🙂

          Regarding vit C, here is the article I was referring to: http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/NHC/studien_pdf/old/the_orthomolecular_treatment_of_cancer.pdf

          I’ll see now if I can post this. (OK, done)

          In this article there are several cases described, treated with vit C. What strikes me is that many patients show an initial good reaction but most of them succumb to their cancer in the end with a quick deterioration at the end. It seems to me that cancer somehow “learns” how to make use of vit C over the course of the disease (by evolving constantly) and once this happens the cancer becomes overly malignant. It is probably the case with citric acid, too, if you think about it.

          However, in a few cases in the article this did not happen for several years. So treating with vit C does make sense if only to provide a window of opportunity to keep the patient alive for a long enough time frame to treat them with other stuff.

          But there are several unanswered questions about vit C. When taking it orally it is an anti-oxidant while intravenously is a pro-oxidant. How does this play out when the patient takes it both routes at the same time? It also seems to me that ascorbyl palmitate might be a better kind of vit C: http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/About_The_Dr_Rath_Health_Foundation/dr_niedzwiecki_speech2001.htm

          Also, here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10717544.2017.1370619

          Best wishes to you for the new year as well!
          H.

        69. Helga, a visual depiction of the synthesis of E260 was in the supplementary file. A writeup of the description was also in the Methods section.

          Great articles! You are so right: There has been so much research over the last 50 years that talking about straight Vitamin C treatment does not make sense. The only problem is that sometimes when you start changing things (even slightly) the biology changes. For example, I am wondering whether AP also is an ATP depletor. It would be amazing if it were! You could use prolonged dosing of the nanoparticles and they would specifically attack the cancer cells.

          Yes, that’s the article that I have focused on! I have posted a spreadsheet of the information for the patients in the Vitamin C forum thread. (You could click on my icon with this thread in the below Forum feed. I think it is helpful to use the sort feature in this spread sheet to see how the dosing, survival and assigned category relate to each other. It is somewhat (though not entirely unexpected) that the iv 10 day by 10 gram dosing patients did not do especially well. One idea would be that simply giving 10 days of iv Vitamin C is not enough to ensure long term survival. This seems perfectly reasonable and consistent with what is known about Vitamin C treatment.

          lullabyman man should be recognized as the thread vitamin C expert. He has read every article ever written about vitamin C and has recently published an online e book about current best practices in Vitamin C. I think that fair and square makes him an expert. In a comment above he proposes that with a proper dosing and combination protocol, cancer should be curable with Vitamin C within a week– with the stipulation that TLS risk and G6PD need to be adequately addressed beforehand.

          So the original article from the 1970s needs to be thought of more as pointing us in the right direction than as rigidly followed dogma.

          From what I understand of the article, Vitamin C clearly and without equivocation demonstrated anti-cancer effect. 4 of 50 patients had a fatal TLS response. Why has there been an argument about this for the last 50 years? Others had regression, others stabilizations and almost all had at least symptomatic benefit.

          One suggestion of why so many had explosive tumor growths after initial benefit is that as they lost tumor control due to suboptimal Vitamin C dosing, they became increasingly Vitamin C depleted. As this continued, the treatment would switch from being proxidant to antioxidant and thus tumor promoting.

          One of the articles that I read helped highlight this point. Healthy humans might have a bowel tolerance of vitamin C of 3 grams. Those with cancer can have bowel tolerances of 100 grams! The vitamin C perspective is that illness can be thought of as a type of scurvy and the more ill people are the scurvier they are. They would also suggest that being so depleted of vitamin C would lead to very low collagen production which would result in cancer not being properly contained and thus more able to metastasize.

          Given the extent of the success noted 50 years in treating critically terminal cancer patients, it is very difficult to imagine that even more focused results with Vitamin C have never been published. For example, the idea of 24/7 in hospital cancer care using ongoing monitoring for TLS and prolonged duration daily dosing of perhaps up to 15 hours per day every day) has not been attempted. Only recently have I seen a trial using genetic selection in Vitamin C been tried. Genes involved in the antioxidant pathway (catalase …) could help predict treatment response as well as other genes (e.g. KRAS).

          Duration not dosing.

          There have been so many thousands of patients dosed with Vitamin C mainly due to its symptomatic effects that it is difficult to have a good sense of how effective it can be therapeutically. However, the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine has a few more recent articles describing patients who had substantial benefit from Vitamin C treatment. They appear to have been treated outside of the typical clinic and seem to have used prolonged dosing schedules.

          The vitamin C Forum is a great place for some of the current thinking about Vitamin C and cancer. Their latest protocols focus on the doxycycline research and mushroom and Vitamin C nanoparticles.

          The vitamin C treatment universe has such great potential (alpha lipoic acid, mushrooms, doxy, prolonged dosing, …). Will this be put to use sometime in the next 50 years?

        70. @Helga, I am so excited for you!
          lullabyman is a Vitamin C expert!

          The treatment approaches that could be used today are light years away from what was used in the 1970s. Your mom would, as almost the minimum, probably start to feel better rapidly.

          You could cycle through a large range of potential treatments until one was found that was effective. Many of these treatments would not even require a prescription. The actual treatment could probably be set up under a home care plan.

          One thing to keep in mind, though, is that advanced patients might not be good candidates for treatment until the bulk of the tumor had been removed to avoid TLS.

          Best Wishes

        71. sirsna, I have been reading through the IVC book and the distinction betwen Sodium Asocrbate and ascorbic acid is noted.

          “​unlike​ ​ascorbic​ ​acid,​ ​sodium​ ​ascorbate which​ ​is​ ​not​ ​acidic​ ​doesn’t​ ​sclerose​ ​(ie.​ ​harden)​ ​nor​ ​damage​ ​tissues​ ​in​ ​any​ ​way​ ​even​ ​in​ ​full strength​ ​(sclerosing​ ​of​ ​the​ ​veins​ ​during​ ​IVC​ ​is​ ​caused​ ​by​ ​commercial​ ​preparation​ ​wherein​ ​the solution​ ​is​ ​slightly​ ​acidic​ ​with​ ​a​ ​pH​ ​as​ ​low​ ​as​ ​5.5), …” Sclerosing tissues does not sound like a good idea, so best to stay away from ascorbic acid.

          Book also mentioned G6PD. Best to check on this and do the test to determine risk.

        72. sirsna, I am glad that you are interested in the vitamin C research.
          I have been reading about it for the last few days and it appears that
          vitamin C is a broadly effective cancer treatment. However, it is not obvious how
          much time will be needed to fully realize this potential.

          The original research from the 1970s clearly demonstrated that it had
          anti-cancer potential in a wide range of cancers. After nearly 50 since
          these findings basic questions such as maximum plasma molarity after
          multiple oral and iv dosing are still unanswered. This makes vitamin C
          as a cancer treatment difficult to unravel.

          Here is one helpful result. Using a specific brand of glucose monitor is able to
          accurately establish ascorbate levels.
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725640/

          Other research using the glucose meter found that oral dosing every minute with 250 mg
          yielded especially high plasma ascorbate levels when measured after 15 minutes of dosing.
          to

        73. The vitamin C forum highlights this article as a breakthrough in understanding vitamin C.
          PMID: 26350063

          Figure 3 shows that the first half of glycolysis is upregulated and the second half is downregulated.
          The first half is the investment stage and the second half is the payback stage. If this change in the flux of glycolysis could be maintained through time this should have a negative impact on cancer cells.

        74. D, could you help out on this one?
          This article provides a two compartment model for vitamin C dosing.
          Such a model would be very helpful for people interested in iv dosing; they would then
          be able to have a good idea of what plasma concentrations would be present.

          http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2000/pdf/2000-v15n04-p201.pdf

          I am working through some of the pharmacokinetic equations though I am stuck on V1 (3.5 L?). If you are aware of the two compartment model, perhaps you could run the numbers.

        75. J, I just finished with your previous request on website functionality, and had to stop from a different activity in order to address that. Now, I will switch back to what I was doing and as a result can not look in to the above request. Thanks for understanding.

        76. Sorry D!
          I’m high maintenance.

          This is great with the forum upgrade we now have
          voting enabled! Everyone, upvote me! Not really sure how you do that. But if anyone can figure that out vote for me!

          Most of the time I am not sure whether I am being helpful for posters or merely annoying. Please let me know.

        77. No problem. Actually, I was writing on a new post. Hmm … sounds like you are starting an election campaign as you are asking for votes 🙂 Ok, I will enable voting as well, if you like to have that, and I will be the first to vote you. But you should know that with or without voting you are very helpful.

        78. Looks good on my “screen”. I like the new layout and voting.

          Please vote me for president lol.

          I hope you all have a good weekend, wherever you find yourself to be.

          Thank you Daniel. You’re eternally energetic, always focused. I admire you.

        79. only if possible with a few click please.
          Allow the user to delete it’s own post.
          Sometimes we can say bad things that we can later realize, it wasn’t right, correct, or have doubts about.
          And if we could see who voted up/down, like on those social platforms, that would also be nice, but again, only if it’s something that takes a minute or two to do.

          Maybe adding a thin border to all pages on the sides… from top to bottom

          Please, always feel free to ignore if not relevant.

          We’re being a little more optimistic here, so taking some time off…. got to recharge.
          Doctor gave good news, markers dropped… apparently things are going towards better.
          Don’t know for how long, still i won’t be of much help if i distroy myself

          I hope you’ll be enjoying a beer with some nice music.

          Thank you for being here for us Daniel.
          Have a good one
          Alex

        80. Hi Alex,

          Great to hear markers are going down!!! Yes, its a very good idea to take care of yourself too.
          Regarding the webpage, I will look into the border idea, but changing the comments can be done only I think 15min after those were sent. Not latter. This is a general rule for most of the social platforms and it makes sense to me. Imagine, what if everyone will start erasing or changing their previous comments and you are trying to find back some info that was shared and found valuable …
          Off course, when there is something that really has to be removed, anyone can ask me that and if that makes sense, I will remove it or edit it.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        81. D, when I go into the dashboard I am seeing all sorts of interesting features that could be available.

          Google Analytics.
          Heartbeat Control?
          Multiple Rules can now be specified.
          Support me on Patreon
          Activate wpDsicuz Comment Author?
          Start using Google Tag Manager? GTM ID

          These sound great!

        82. Hi J, yes there are many things to be done indeed. But for now I was kept awake until 4:00 am as the website was under heavy attack. I succeeded to find a way to stop that with a Cloudflare option … and I am so happy as I can get to sleep now … otherwise the website would have been down soon.

        83. hi d,
          do you have an idea on who can be interested in attacking the website? and on what purpose?
          it seems strange to me to attack this website unless u are unhuman ?

        84. Hi A, I don’t think the attack specifically targeted this website because of its content. I do not know what the gain is for those doing this, but it happens every few months. I think, now with CloudFlare option, the protection should be some of the best and hope not to have to deal with it again.

        85. D, I received an email that notified me that you commented on this thread that my IP had sent over 15000 requests to this site in the last 24 hours. I do not see this comment here.

          I am not sure what might be wrong with my browser, though anything that you or others might suggest to me that could help solve this problem would be greatly welcome.

        86. Hi J, yes I did that but than took it out and intended to send it by e-mail. They suggested me to block that IP and when I checked I found out that was yours so I didn’t block it 🙂 Just to make it clear, that is not related with the other issue I had last night, which was based on random IPs. Anyway, let’s forget about this subject since we do not want to spend our time here discussing IT challenges. Kind regards, Daniel

        87. D, I agree that we don’t want to spend time on that side of things, though when there is trouble coming it’s a good thing to notify others.

          I did what I could on my end. I updated my browser settings. I hope that helps. Could you let me know if it does? I don’t want to crash your site!

        88. Making progress on the pharmacokinetics!

          Given: Kx=0.025, k1=0.353,k2=0.100, k2/k1=0.292
          (From the article above: Table 2 and Figure 5)

          [Kx (k excretion) here is also denoted as kel= k elimination, k1 also seems to be denoted as k12, and k2 is also denoted as k21, thisis for a two compartment model]

          Here are the equations:

          alpha + beta = k1 + k2 +kx Equation 1

          alpha * beta =k2 * kx Equation 2

          alpha= (alpha+ beta)/2 + Equation 3
          {(alpha+beta)^^2 – 4 *(alpha*beta)}^^0.5]/2

          Therefore,
          alpha =0.473 hr-1
          beta=0.0053 hr-1

          Ct = A * (e^^-alpha*t) + B* (e^^-beta*t) Equation 4

          Choose two points for Cx : use t=0 and t=60

          Shift the x axis in Figure 5 by 60 minutes to the left.
          So, time 60 is set as time 0 and C0=425
          Also, time 120 –>time 60 and C60=250

          This gives A=81.4, B=343.5

          Now what you can do is draw the theoretical concentration curve using equation 4. This result looks almost the same as Figure 5 (shifted 60 minutes to the right)!

          I am not sure, though I think that we might now have a general equation that could be used in other circumstances. For example, if we wanted to know what the concentration curve would look like if we were to dose for an hour, then take a break for an hour, and then dose for another hour etc., then we could simply use a modified form of the equation.

          Namely, Ct= A * (e^^-alpha*t) + B* (e^^-beta*t)+
          A * (e^^-alpha*(t-240)) + B* (e^^-beta*(t-240))
          + A * (e^^-alpha*(t-480)) + B* (e^^-beta*(t-480))
          etc.

          What all of this means is that there appears to be a fairly straight forward method of calculating plasma concentrations using different dosing routes and schedules. Would want to double check everything, especially since I believe I came across a reference that talked of using only 20 g maintenance dosing.

          Yet, with the new glucose monitoring approach to establishing ascorbate concentrations, such calculations would be of lesser importance.

        89. Article below had very similar values for k1,k2and kx for vitamin C. Also mentions alpha-lipoic and phenyl ascorbate combos.

          PMID: 11384106

        90. A mix including vitamin C, lysine and others reduced metastatic activity. Lysine is though to be a collagen protecter.

          PMID: 23885992

        91. Dear lullabyman,

          Your stories do sound like lullaby to my ears. I did look at your co’s website and couldn’t find the info as you are saying they were removed now. Where can i get some more specific info about these pumps? Could you be so kind and provide your email address? I guess, Daniel could provide it by email if I request it? I wonder if in practice it would be possible to try vit C IV at home. My mother’s doctor was so obtuse as to not notice/ignore my mom’s cachexia and ascites so it would be hopeless to ask for his help. Who could help locally I wonder? Maybe a nurse?

          You sound most knowledgeable about this subject!

          Best,
          Helga

        92. I can help. Full out the contact form at ivcBook.com and ask for Dave. Ascites is a condition that requires some finesse with IVC.

        93. Hi Helga, forgot to mention … the contact form is actually on the download page (http://ivcbook.com/download). You need a copy of the book, which I’ll send you free of charge if you just fill out the form (there is no intent to sell the book for profit and so it’s free to people currently dealing with cancer in their family).

          More info on ascites and IVC: there are a number of reports that conventional high-dose IVC can make ascites worse (one of the very few contraindications) at least with the very high-doses (which is where the greatest efficacy is observed when using the conventional 30g/hr rates). Previous reports of ascites related to IVC is likely due to electrolyte loss (especially magnesium, but also calcium and potassium) from using very large doses of pure IVC. A slow but continuous long-duration method including the addition of blood-balanced electrolytes may well give you the same benefits without that ascites risk (detailed instructions are in the book). You’re less likely to see huge swings in the body (possibly aggravating, maybe even causing ascites) that might otherwise be caused by the high conventional rate of 30g/hr. For this reason your proposed approach to do it at home via an hospice nurse could be a good workaround because you can do a protocol closer to the original Pauling therapy, around 2g-5g/hour (instead of the conventional 30g/hr rate) given constantly throughout the day to keep blood ascorbates in the millimolar range (cancer killing range) to selectively starve cancer to death by NAD depletion.

          For dilution, you’ll also want to make sure they are using sterile water (not saline) with certain electrolytes (again, mixing instructions are in the book) mixed for blood balanced isotonicity. Ascites patients also need to keep their sodium intake low.

          The ambulatory pump delivery method I’ve described previously is one that is *not* immediately available mainly for logistical reasons, but in a few more months is something we’ll have available as part of a clinical trial. You’re certainly interested in doing something a little sooner, and your hospice nurse at home using a normal IV setup can simulate the same thing, but without the advantages (like greater efficacy) of an ambulatory pump. You can improve efficacy in other ways (read the section on “How Patients Can Enhance IVC”).

          Go here to find a practitioner: http://ivcbook.com/find-a-practitioner/

          I love your enthusiasm, but remember that IVC might not save the patient (just like any other IV cancer therapy), however unlike other cancer treatments IVC always improves quality of life factors, and nearly always potentiates other treatments. 100 different things can cause uncontrolled tissue growth (cancer) and IVC’s anticancer efficacy is contingent on what that growth mechanism is and upon IVC’s ability to permeate the proprietary cancer vascularity.

        94. lullabyman, this is great news about a clinical trial!
          We really need to sort out the duration question.
          Would you start it off by exploring different dosings?
          This has never been done with vitamin C, even the 1970s research
          did not fully explore this. For example, what might happen if you dosed 24/7? What would be a good dosing rate and dose per day?

          Many many unanswered questions.

          I am also very surprised that these questions never seemed to have permeated the awareness of the pharmacology community. For example, I now find it highly surprising that the first published 3-BP was treated with a bolus dose. The write up noted that this was thought to be necessary due to the utmost urgency of the patient’s condition.

          Strangely, and somewhat counterintuitively if one were in such a desperate situation the best strategy probably would have been to do slow dosing. It is hard to imagine that this concept appears almost entirely absent in clinical medicine. It would be all the more important to be aware of this with metabolic medicine.

          Even in the latest E260 research duration dosing was not tried. Instead they also tried to increase dose for more effectiveness and this actually decreased the response.

          Duration over dosing is a strategy that should be considered for Vitamin C, 3-BP, E260 and many many other medicines. Perhaps this should become part of the standard pharmaco workup of all drugs.

        95. It’s all about money. Until recently continuous low-dose IV required long hospital visits and constant monitoring … very costly, eating away at hospital profits. With new low-cost ambulatory pumps all that is changing.

          We’re initially doing tests on non-cancerous patients and running a lot of diagnostic tests and panels (which we want to troubleshoot prior to working with cancer patients).

        96. lullabyman, I am entirely sure that you will agree, though I want to put this out anyways: This is so frustrating!

          – 8% of the patients from the first 50 patients had a fatal TLS response (Category 6),
          -plus 10% had clear tumor regressions (Category5)
          -plus 6% had “cytostasis” (Category 4)
          and only 14% were thought to have received no benefit at all from treatment

          Overall, 14% were at least 1 year survivors and 8% had a complete response, though without accompanying survival benefit due to the lack of TLS treatment at that time.

          Yet, 50 years later we still cannot identify the approximately 25% of patients who would almost without question derive significant benefit from treatment? These patients were specifically selected on the basis that they were completely untreatable by 1970s standards. As the article notes, those patients who at first responded to vitamin C and could be treated with standard of care were not included in the study. {Do you know how many fit into this class?}

          Are you aware of any chronobiology research into Vitamin C? I have become quite interested lately about how chronobiology might be an especially good fit with metabolic medicine. I have not been able to find this specific research in the literature. My basic working hunch is that normal cells power down through the night while people are sleeping, while tumor cells are not under proper circadian control and will be powered up through the night. This suggests to me that there might be potential to selectively stress cancer cells by removing their power supply during the night. {However, it might actually work the other way round. That is normal cells might be more vulnerable to such energetic manipulation.}

          There is a new generation of super powerful anti-cancer pharmaceuticals approaching such as Nek214. Those on our forum need to be aware of these 21st Century medicines. Yet, they should also be aware of medicines such as Vitamin C which has shown at a minimum of providing considerable symptomatic benefit for most patients.

        97. I’ve not considered that, but chronobiology and cancer definitely appears to be something worth investigating, especially with substances that can selectively affect cancer metabolism.

        98. This seems like such a perfect idea. People have long considered how patients might be put into a state of stasis in order to treat their illness. Chronobiology and other such approaches would seem such a great opportunity to be used in cancer.

          What if metabolic rate could be maximally reduced in normal cells? For example, perhaps by lowering body temperature and glucose, inducing a hibernation response by perhaps changing the photoperiod, taking advantage of circadian, ultraradian and other biological cycles? Cancer cells would then be greatly out of phase metabolically and might be very vulnerable to metabolic interventions.

        99. Dear Lullabyman,

          so sorry for not responding sooner but I had very limited mobile internet till recently, then had to rush my mom to the hospital, etc. There were a lot of dreadful moments in the last month when I felt we are losing my mom. Thanks so much for your detailed description of what could be done at home. I am pretty sure my mom will refuse an iv vit C at home but we should consult the doctor and his nurse at least. How many hours should she have the iv per day, do you have any idea?

          I am very curious about your ambulant pump. Sounds like a great idea. I guess, if diabetics can wear a pump to avert damage associated with high/low blood sugar then so could cancer patients. (BTW, there was a diabetic woman in the hospital in my mom’s room and she was sort of unconscious, talking a lot to herself. There was a pouch attached to her bed, I believe with her urine flowing into it. I was abhorred by the idea so never asked if true. Very dehumanising. My guess is that she suffered brain damage due to her diabetes. Maybe she was about to fall into a coma when she was found.)

          I live in Central Europe so maybe won’t have access to your pump but would like to know about any new developments anyway.

          Thanks a lot,
          Helga

    2. I want to preface this post by stating that I believe that high dose vitamin C has good potential in fighting cancer, especially combined with other therapies. We use it weekly at home with a 75g IV combined with ozone therapy, fasting and hyperthermia. I also agree that it makes sense to sustain high blood levels of vitamin C for as long as possible to maintain stress on the cancer cells.

      I looked at the two original studies posted below by Lullaby Man – the first one the link is no longer valid, so here is a valid link:
      http://www.cellmedsoc.org/research_archive/NHC/studien_pdf/old/the_orthomolecular_treatment_of_cancer.pdf.

      For the first study on the first 50 IV vitamin C patients, it reads to me that patients received approx. 10g vitamin C in an all day infusion each day for between 1-10 days (although some patients were never given IV, only oral), they were then started on oral vitamin C 10g for the duration of their treatment. In the first 50 patients, 27 patients had no response or minimal response, but others had very good response. I find it surprising that many of those who experienced regression or other beneficial response did not even receive IV, only oral vitamin C. In fact, the authors state, “with increasing experience we now tend to believe that the intravenous regimen is probably unnecessary.”

      The second study below https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC336151/pdf/pnas00668-0476.pdf, was published in 1978 (8 years after the vitamin C therapies began) and looked at 100 patients treated with varying doses of vitamin C, but mostly 10g. These patients were compared to 1000 cancer matched controls and showed significant survival benefit. The study states it was “supplemental vitamin C” and judging from the case studies published in “Cancer and Vitamin C” by Edwan Cameron and Linus Pauling, I believe that the dosing in this second 100 patients may have been principally oral. The chapter “Case Histories of Vale of Leven Patients” provides many case studies with varying outcomes, dosing in these cases is principally oral vitamin C, usually around 10g.

      A quote from the book:
      “A cautions start was made in November 1971. Vitamin C (as sodium ascorbate) in what at that time seemed like a very high dosage (10g per day) was given to a small number of patients with very advanced cancer who were under the care of one of us in Vale of Leven Hospital. If one dares to use the word “lucky” in such a dismal situation, we were indeed lucky in the chance that selected these firs few patients. They responded very dramatically indeed, being converted from a hopeless, terminal, “dying” situation into a hopeful “recovering” situation. It was a very exciting start- it seemed too good to be true.”
      “But then after some time the first few ascorbate-treated patients died, and some of the new patients did not respond so dramatically to the ascorbate treatment, so that we passed through a period of real self doubt…..[ ]…Fortunately, we continued to prescribe ascorbate for our dying cancer patients and also, with increasing confidence, for many other cancer patients at much earlier stages in their illness. Now, eight years and many hundreds of cancer patients later, we are in a position to make a cautions assessment of its worth. Vitamin C is not a miraculous cure for cancer, but it goes a long way toward the therapeutic goal.”

      The book goes on to state that the vitamin C prolongs life and improves quality of life, and indeed, their data support the conclusion.

      Anyhow, this post is food for thought, but also an interpretation from another set of eyes on this early vitamin C literature. There is no doubt that Pauling and Cameron were successful, the question is why, was the high dose oral spread out throughout the day enough to put continuous stress on cancer cells? After looking at the studies and cases, there were too many successes in the oral only category to conclude that it has to be IV for dramatic response.

      1. Shanti, I am so glad that you picked up on this! I know how wearying it can be to go on yet another wild goose chase and then come back empty handed, though the more that I read from that first Pauling vitamin C study in Scotland the more it clicks for me. 8% of these patients had a fatal TLS response! How can anyone say that there was no anti-cancer effect?
        These patients were all selected on the basis of being completely untreatable.

        As you noted “there is no doubt”, exactly. How could anyone read that study and argue otherwise? Yet, here we are
        40 years later and the doubt continues. I do not know whether a true replication of the original result has ever even been attempted with any degree of due diligence. I did have to step back, though, and wonder how these results would stand up to the best of today’s medicine. Of interest, is that treatment of testicular cancer became a big success story of that time.
        The patient treated in Scotland with testicular cancer with vitamin C had a fatal TLS response. People might have been much more willing to study vitamin C as a cancer treatment if testicular cancer could have been successfully treated with vitamin C.

        Nonetheless, I think maybe on this page a Singapore study using high dose, high intensity vitamin C reported quite impressive results. With today’s genetic technology, one would expect that even better results could be obtained by
        selecting for those who would be especially good responders.

        It is frustrating that there are still so many questions about vitamin C that have no answers. On the vitamin C forum site, they noted that they had found that even high oral dosing of vitamin C can result in spikes of blood concentrations. Another reference (possibly on this page) noted that moderate dosing might be better (not sure perhaps related to stem cells). Even the actual dosing used in the Scottish study is still uncertain. It would be great if we could contact someone who had personal experience of what was done and have an eyewitness view of what happened. The article did not seem to be clear about this point.

        It is hard for me to believe that they never thought to try another round of high dose IV in hospital treatment when patients progressed. It seems that there were very limited hospital resources that had to be rationed carefully. Prehaps they could have set up the iv in the homes of the patients.

        In your quote above, when they talked about not doing as well with the second batch of patients I wonder whether this had anything to do with changing the protocol. When you look at the dosing it seemed to change through time. Yet, the problem is that it is not entirely clear what was the chronological ordering of the patients. The 10 g x 10 day iv treatment group almost all did relatively well. It could have been really informative if they had manipulated the treatment to see what worked best.

        Doing a high intensity, several week cycle of daily vitamin C treatment with a combination does seem compelling. Just have to go through the safety check list first.

        1. HI J,nice to hear from you :)Yyou could try and reach Prof. Dana Flavin http://collmed.org/ I remember she said she was a student at Pauling. You could ask her a few relevant questions, to the point and there is a good chance she will answer. She is a very nice person and a very open minded doctor. Otherwise, please post your questions here and I will send them to her. Thanks.

        2. Hi Jcancom, Thanks for your fast response and additional detail provided. I have to say that after reading much of the 3bp thread on cancer compass and many of your posts here, I very much appreciate your enthusiasm and rallying us all to keep investigating and keeping on!

      2. Dear Shanti,

        thanks a lot for the summary above. This is very helpful.

        In the article above there were two major mechanisms discussed, related to the potential anti cancer effect of Vit C. The pro oxidant one related to the high dose Vitamin C. And the Hyaluronidase inhibition related to the low dose over extended time. The second mechanism seems to be what Pauling had in mind. Based on all the discussions and reading the key elements related to a successfull Vit C treatment may be:
        – if the focus is on Hylauronidase inhibition make sure Vit C is admin continuously at low dose
        – if the focus is on the Proxidant mechanism, make sure the blood Iron is lower prior to the high dose Vit C
        Both could work. The first mechanism is easier to achieve but may require longer time to see results. The second is more difficult to achieve due to the required blood iron reduction, but may lead to faster anti cancer action.

        Kind regards,
        Daniel

        1. Yes! I was thinking the same around 3am when I woke up and couldn’t sleep :-). Thank you for putting it down so succinctly, it really clears things up on the ways in which one can use vitamin C depending on dose and route of administration. Hopefully the natural iron chelators we are taking (green tea, curcumin, and pectasol) plus the fasting the day before and through the duration of the IV will bring down the iron levels enough for therapeutic effect. It would probably be worth testing his iron levels after a day of fasting. His non-fasting iron is typically 75ug/dL (range 38-169).

        2. Was nice and funny reading your comment as you could not sleep because of Vit C thoughts. 🙂 From Iron chelation point of view, you may want to have a look at Baicalein as well. Kind regards, Daniel

        3. For those reading this thread in the future, Baicalein can be found in the USA on Amazon as a 95% pure powder.

        4. Thanks Shanti! Could you please share the link here? Are you sure that is not Baicalin instead of Baicalein?

        5. Hmmmmm….. sneaky letter ‘e’, you are right, it is Baicalin, not Baicalein on amazon.

          It appears that Baicalin has glucaronic acid attached and is the precursor to Baicalein. Baicalein may be better absorbed https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12631413, and it does have more research on cancer. I don’t see Baicalein for sale here except for through chemical supply companies, perhaps Baicalin could be used as a second choice?

  6. I go with my wife twice a week to a clinic, where she makes an infusion of 50 g ascorbic acid, magnesium two fills 8 ml DMSO. In the infusion, there is water for injections.

    From what I read on the net I can not figure out whether ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate should be used, which I understand is a salt of ascorbic acid. Those who use ascorbic acid do not perfuse it without tamping it until it reaches somewhere at 6/7 ph and if it is used without buffering, it leads to acidosis, so to tumor growth.

    What do you think about what the infusion of vitamin C, ascorbic acid, plain or buffered, or sodium ascorbate should be?

  7. hi guys

    this is must read ,because it s supposed to attack the stem cells
    they are starting with doxycicline and adding vit c as glycolisis inhibitor,

    what is supprising here is that they say the vit c is 10 ten fold more efficient than 2dg as inhibitor and 100 more efficient when associated with doxy

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-06-vitamin-antibioticsa-one-two-knocking-out-cancer.html

    i m interested in knowing if any of us have used this protocol described in this article

    thanks

    1. Thanks a lot for sharing this one Altermed. It makes very much sense based on all our discussions regarding the strategy of combining mito and glyco inhibitors. But since this is a lab study, we would need to do more in real life in order to try and achieve similar results. This is why I would combine more glyco inhibitors and mito inhibitors at the same time. Also, Vit C may not reach the tumor in real life if done alone, and I discussed in the post above what we could do to increase its chance of effectiveness.

      We did used Doxy often and it helped us a lot. But never combined with Vit C in a structured manner. But we did used while using 3BP (a glyco inhibitor), sometimes back in 2015.

      Kind regards,
      Daniel

  8. D, I think I’ll try out my comments in the back pages of your threads and if I receive a positive response then I can put it up on one of the upfront pages. Hiding treatments that could help others on the forum is not what this is all about.

    Yeah, Ferumoxytol does appear to be fairly interesting.
    First it is already available.
    Second it might combine nicely with other immunotherapies.
    Wonder if anyone has tried this in metastatic melanoma.

  9. Hi, the wife makes vitamin c iv twice a week and once every two weeks chelation with EDTA iv. I bought today and EDTA capsules to take daily. Now the question: It appears from the leaflet that 3 capsules (3 * 800mg) may be taken, all at bedtime, on the empty stomach. Is that ok? Should I take EDTA pills and on the days that she makes vitamin C, ozone or hyperthermia?

  10. There appear to be several ways to enhance the pro-oxidant strategy.
    It would be very helpful if some of these ideas were to be tested in the clinic.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854242/pdf/0100-879X-bjmbr-45-08-701.pdf
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5193408/pdf/pone.0168283.pdf
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26496207

    Why didn’t they use iv vitamin C instead of oral in the apatone trial?
    The oral vitamin C dose they used was minimal.

  11. Hi, I am wondering about high sodium intake when applying intravenous sodium ascorbate. Does it impair cardiovascular/renal function? Is there something we can do to prevent possible adverse effects of excess sodium? Thanks.

    1. Very good question since sodium will also facilitate glucose absorption via the Sodium-dependent glucose cotransporters, e.g. SGLT1, which we do not want in cancer. In addition sodium helps cancer cells export acidity (protons) via Na/H exchange. This is why is good to lower the table-salt intake. Possible adverse effects may be reduced when using inhibitors of the two transport channels I mentioned. For example Na/H channel is inhibited/lowered by Amiloride which is a diuretic drug (see my post on pH) https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/ph-cancer-a-top-treatment-strategy/
      We also discussed ways to inhibit the sodium-dependent glucose transporters https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/glucose-absorption-inhibitors-to-inhibit-tumor-growth/

      Kind regards,
      Daniel

  12. Hi all!

    Need a consultation about doses and preparing of iv vit C.

    I want to start iv vit C between chemos.
    In my pharmacy there is solution vit C for injection 500mg/5ml.
    What would be appropriate dose for starting – I am ready to start with 5g vit C infusion, then increase the dose. I can do it even every day or is it better to do 2-3x/per week?
    So I take Sodium Chloride 0.9% Intravenous Infusion and mix with 10 ampoules of vit C for injections 500mg/5ml ?
    Do I understand correctly?
    PLease, advise needed…

    Kindly,
    i.

    1. Dear I,

      I think is best to start this with a medical doctor.
      Also, it is best that you use Vit C prepared for high dose IV, as supplied by various compounding pharmacies, including most of those I listed on the “Supplier” page of this website (from the above I understand you are considering using the small vials ready for injection). It should cost about 18euro for 25g bottle.
      Prep and administration method is described in the article above.
      If you have a question related to something you do not find there please let me know and will try to help.

      Kind regards,
      Daniel

  13. sirsna, D has a great insight into preparing for vitamin c treatment.

    lullabyman’s link for the original vitamin C article is very informative.
    Notice how many of these patients appeared to have good responses.

    Four of them even developed TLS!
    You don’t want TLS, though it does show that these patients had very large responses.
    Notably with modern iv vitamin C protocols, patients usually only derive a modest benefit.

    http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/NHC/studien_pdf/old/the_orthomolecular_treatment_of_cancer.pdf

    The crucial idea that seems to have been lost from the above study was that it is more a question of sustaining
    iv vitamin c treatment through time than needing to reach yet higher maximum concentrations in the body.
    The big concern that you need to be aware of is that if you have a substantial tumor burden, then too many
    cancer cells might be destroyed all at once resulting in the dangerous condition known as Tumor Lysis Syndrome.

    This would need to be carefully considered and managed.
    The Infusion website has suggestions of how to evaluate risk.

  14. Did not know where to post this, so I’ll do it here at the top, which means it will end up at the bottom, but better than buried somewhere in the middle. If you go to the bottom of this document you’ll find a list of integrations that will either diminish or potentiate IVC efficacy:
    http://ivcbook.com/ebooks/IVC%20Administration%20Quick%20Reference.pdf

    Many of them are not intuitive (it discourages, for example, many antioxidants for use in sequence with IVC), and it cites the studies from which these findings come. At minimum patients should be doing ALA. If the patient is unaware whether a supplement (even if they think they have a good logistical basis for their belief) will help or hurt they should err on the side of safety and not take the supplement on the same day that they get IVC treatment. Take it on the odd days. There are other things they definitely should be doing too. For example, anything to improve blood oxygen, especially in hypoxic tumoral regions, is extremely beneficial during IVC and on the same day thereof.

    1. lullabyman, this must be even all the more frustrating for you when you have these insights and it is so difficult to move it forward.
      From what i understand now vitamin C should be effective, though the right clinical trials need to, though likely will never, occur. Research with Mn porphyrin and vitamin C has been ongoing for many years and still no trials. Perhaps even a combo with paracetamol could help, though there again no trial and no way to know whether that would be truly safe and effective.

      Even still the idea that we have tuned into about duration not dose seems to have received some uptake on our forum.

      1. Yes, you’re right Jcancom, the resistance toward progress is debilitating in fact. I’m hopeful that if we can control enough parameters, however, and define the treatment to be tested in terms of the mechanism then we can better ensure proper protocols will be followed. For example, if we can deliver the exact medicine, ready to be used, with an engineered flow-rate for example, then it’s pretty hard for researchers to underdose for example, or used compromised medicine. That’s half of the battle and part of the idea behind the pre-filled pumps (and they do have an adjustable flow-rate valve that can be turned down, but not be turned off) from a dependable vendor. Then you’re getting consistency from test to test and more reliable results. Also if you define the treatment in terms of the mechanism involved (example: starve cancer to death, or selective prooxidation) it is then less likely that the practitioner will allow or integrate activities and/or therapies that will sabotage the outcome since they will be focused on that instead of focused on diminishing the mechanism in order to engineer a desired outcome. That’s the problem with “testing IVC” … IVC is not a magical phenomena that kills cancer irrespective to other treatments but too often we treat it like it does. Doing this regularly, we can then demonstrate a consistency that will remove the negative or non-responsive outliers while testing. At some point if we keep up that strategy the compounding results will be irrefutable and the NIH will have no excuse to put off funding a properly done large cohort study (like they are now doing with IVC and sepsis). In the meantime at least we have the option of using a DTC approach. DTC does get dicey when you’re talking about intravenous infusions, but we can involve a practitioner as a middle man and make them part of a study, then everything is then legal and it lays the groundwork for an observational study that can’t be ignored. What you then need is enough practitioners willing to cooperate that will provide their services at a reasonable level to facilitate the work. That’s the real trick. Even naturopaths are reticent to help participate in a trial if they fear it could lead to a protocol that would simultaneously heal their patients faster while giving their patients less reason to come in as frequently as they normally do.

        We need to break practitioners everywhere out of the zero-sum mindset. Healing better shouldn’t mean less money. Instead, if all their patients were miraculously healed 10x faster then elsewhere then they should get 10x more patients than elsewhere. Practitioners need to get a commitment from their patients if they’re healed100% in 2 weeks then their patients will do everything they can to empty large hospitals into their little clinic to get the same miraculous results.

        1. From time to time we have noted combos that did not seem reasonable based on our understanding. The idea that treatment providers might have an intent of sabotaging outcome did not occur to me.

          One of my big disappointments with the 1970s research was that they attempted to create a theory that could explain the results. I think that often in science it would be best to simply publish the result as a descriptive result. Meaning they only provide the results without interpretations. In this way there is no possibility that someone might find that
          the purported mechanism of action had been misreported etc. .

          It is extremely disturbing that the argument for vitamin C could hinge on whether it were profit maximizing for those providing treatment. How can medicine have a viable future with such values?

        2. There will be a future for healthcare as long as there is money it in. 😉

          It’s a delicate balance … and I don’t think greed is really part of the equation for those in alternative medicine … it has more to do with survival. You can’t provide your life-saving services without a minimum level of pay and it takes a great leap of faith to invest in a more efficacious treatment under the presumption that the better results will drive more people to you to make up for the loss in income. It usually doesn’t work that way, at least not in the short term. Doctors are among the best people I know, and naturopaths are the best of the best, but they have clinics and people in those clinics that depend on them and the business.

          I agree that we always rush too quick to assigning a mechanism when something seems to work. Causes a ton of missteps down the road.

        3. This is true about the need for a sustainable economic model in medicine. I also think it is helpful to remember that doctors provide care within a system that exhibits behaviors that they must simply accept. Those who do not want to accept such limitations have often been required to cross a border to provide the care that they feel is in the best interests of their patients.

          It is difficult for a scientist not to make a speculation about the mechanism, though it is humbling to remember how often such speculations have been. Even many approved medications have been found to have different mechanisms than was predicted. In fact some cancer drugs appear to have metabolic MOA that had not been understood on approval.

          I had been convinced that drugs with nM effects must be highly targeted. Yet, I have only recently begun to realize that even these highly specific drugs then must interact within a highly networked biological system. For example, a pharmaceutical that might have potent effects against an immune enzyme might then result in large add-on effects on the glycolytic pathway. The whole conception of a neat and tidy manipulation of any biological system seems extremely naive.

        4. J.
          I am still reading and reading.It is amazing .
          Here in this website,the patients are not in terminal case so they dont know what it is.
          There is nothing to do as a treatment mostly to terminal cases.
          So when i m reading,i can catch lots of valuable data from this article.
          BECAUSE I KNOW TERMINAL CASE.
          What is your opinion about a good vitc protocol?How should it be?

        5. For me terminal case:
          Tumor blocks an important vein,or embolism (a huge possibilty),bowl obstruction,ascites etc.
          Very low albumin so there will be no minerals ,iron,hormones in vein,all of them goes to other parts of body as EDEMA.
          If vitc is effective in this case,it is a revolution.

        6. Hi Daniel,Jandro wrote stg to my page but i can not find.Can you please help me?Because the page is long my phone cannot open.Is it a question about me or other thing?

        7. Hi Ergin,

          I will forward the msg to your e-mail – indeed the comment list became to long. I will activate an option to only list max maybe 50 comments at once.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        8. Thanks Daniel, i got it and very sad.And write him a mail.i wish i could help him but how?
          I couldnt help my mother also and may be as J said the best drug was in my hand.Vit c.
          We are planning to begin a vitc protocol to our patient .And we will need help.
          Kind regards
          Ergin

        9. Dear Daniel,
          I am ashamed after reading this article.
          You did a great work.Every knowledge is here about vitc.From iron chelation to Glut1.
          This is not a 1 day work.
          I couldnt find anything to put over this huge knowledge.
          I have a question about half life of vitc.
          You wrote upto an article that it is 4,5 hours.
          Some says 30 minutes.
          Low dose is antioxidant,high dose is prooxidant which generates hydrogen peroxide which we need,if i true understand.And we are giving iv vitc in nearly 100 minutes.
          It seems that it is not possible to reach prooxidant level if we give small dosages in long infusions.Do you think that we can create a protocol which can reach this levels without side effects.
          What is the minimum dosage for anti-cancer activity for example,do you have any data?
          Kind regards
          Ergin

        10. Hi Ergin,

          Indeed, I did work a lot to put together this post, as I did for others too. It is a pity to see that friends who are discussing on this website actively do not actually read most of the posts … Answering your questions:
          – there is a lot of knowledge on the half life of Vit C – you can find the info in the references included in this post
          – yes, if we give low dose during long time we will not make use of the pro-oxidant nature of high-dose Vit C. Instead we will access other mechanisms such as the one proposed by Pauling and Cameron related to Hyaluronic Acid (please see the “Mechanism” section)
          – as I remember, Pauling and Cameron used lower doses compared to the high-dose Vit C used in the clinics today, and they still claimed to achieved anti cancer effects. Based on this, if the best anti cancer mechanism comes from the mechanism suggested by Pauling and Cameron, low dose Vit C during an extended period of time can lead to anti cancer effects. Note: since this would be a mechanism not related to pro-oxidation but to the action of the relevant enzyme on hylaruonic acid, I think this is an approach that should not be combined with chemo – I would expect this approach to even reduce chemo effectiveness due to the increase of hylaruonic acid around the tumor but also the anti-angiogenesis effect of the low-dose Vit C. (all these are theoretical speculations)

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        11. Hi Daniel,
          Again thank you very much for giving me time.
          You are right,we mostly dont read your pages.But i understand people cannot consantrate while racing with time.

          Cameron,Pauling and his wife passed away from cancer despite using 10 gr vitc daily.
          If it is true ofcourse.
          I have to take some rest without thinking cancer for some days if i can do.

        12. Erg, I am so glad that you got it!

          When you carefully read and think about the 1974 study, you realize that they had found a large piece of the puzzle all the way back then. Yet, over the years that truth has been obscured. There are tens of thousands of cancer patients receiving vitamin C treatment and they are likely deriving little if any benefit from it!

          One thing to keep in mind is that Pauling and the original researchers only had part of the solution. They did not fully understand what they themselves had found. The big problem is that the last 50 years of science has largely been bogus. The replication studies never were clear about their dosing though they probably used 10 gram bolus oral. That would be useless. Pauling argued that oral dosing could be all that was needed, though it would have been best to have insisted that a faithful replication of the original research be done. It never has been.

          If the original research had been properly replicated than optimized treatment protocols could have been developed. This has never happened. In a recent editorial in the journal below, there is a plea to finally do such research now.
          http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/

          My best guess is that there is a substantial amount of treatment power behind vitamin C that is still not being used. For example, more intensely prolonged dosing, more cycles of iv dosing, combinations etc.
          Yet, after all of these years the safety or effecicy of such protocols are still unclear. Would also love to know what genotypes would have especially favorable responses.

          (I posted the 1974 spreadsheet to the Vitamin C forum thread.)

  15. Quick question: has anyone heard, read, experienced circulation issues with IV Vitamin C treatments? I know I read to watch for potential build up in arteries as a result of some IV treatments, which can then cause circulation issues, but cannot recall if it was Vit C.

    1. Kim, iv Vitamin C appears to be a safe treatment. A recent article found that thousands of patients receive it every year in the US and that there are typically very few problems. Probably the most glaring contrast would be with the many and sometimes severe toxicities that can emerge with mainstream treatments. The article from the 1970s noted that most of those cancer patients treated with it had at least a symptomatic benefit.

      1. Dear J,
        I am also excited when i see your energy.
        I am with you about vitC.
        Long duration is must in cancer treatment.
        Blood half life of drugs has to be known.As we know cancer REPAIRS it self very fast.
        It does it with using SGLT.It uses glucose to repair itself.
        As you know i worked too much on SGLT inhibitors.Also a simple drug dapagliflozin which is sold in pharmacies may be a powerful cancer drug if it is used for long duration.
        May be after some weeks there will be no glucose inside tumors.Blood half life of drugs has to be known as a first work job in my opinion for an effective cancer treatment.
        Unfortunatelly we can not use inhibitors and vitc together.Because vitc uses GLUT to enter cells which phlorizin derivatives block.
        But i am with you about vitc.Prof Mutlu is using vitc just before chemo from years to 100s of patients without any side effects. (50grx2 week).I am thinking why clinical trials jump from 10gr/day to 50gr/day but 2xweek in Germany?Where is the middle dosages??
        Kind Regards
        Ergin

        1. Erg, thank you!

          I am so glad that you were able to grasp this idea. Sometimes great ideas never catch on because
          it is not possible to get even one other person on board.

          Yes, I am now reconfiguring my entire thought process to accommodate extended duration dosing.
          I am very unclear why this concept is not part of the standard pharmacokinetic workup.

          For example, in the latest E260 result, they show the time-concentration curve and it shows that E260
          has a half life of about an hour and a half. Why don’t they then go on to dose in vivo with extended dosing?
          Such a dosing schedule should greatly amplify the response, perhaps even quadratically. E260 is a metabolic
          drug all such drugs likely would also be magnified in the same way. This should be the standard work up.

          This is not a small or insignificant observations. People would typically think that if a response did not occur
          all they would need to do is increase dose. This is a dangerous strategy. Increasing dose past a certain point
          will yield little gain and a great deal of risk. This is exactly what some posters on the compass thread did with
          3-BP.

          So, I will be pushing this idea for a range of treatments including vitamin C, 3-BP, E260, DCA, taurolidine(?) etc..
          I am very interested to see how much more powerful metabolic medicine can be with this approach and whether
          unique toxicities might emerge. If toxicity did not emerge, then this would be a big gain.

        2. J,
          I want to meet you from mail skype whatts up telegram or normal life. It does not matter how it is.
          Do you know why?Because of your energy.That is wonderful.I really dont know where you are what nationally doesnot matter for me.Whats is your job,why and how you entered cancer world.Your iq or knowledge is not important man,your energy deserves lots of things.
          I have plans for cancer research.For humanity.
          But i lost my energy after serious bad happenings.It will be a pleasure for me to meet you.
          Kind Regards
          Ergin

        3. Btw,
          It is very clear that your iq is high but i want to talk about W.He is a real good person.It is very important to choose friends.I know some people who knows i lost my mom and the situation of dad but newer call me despite knowing my phone number.

        4. Do I understand correctly that SGLT inhibitors help to increase serum level of vit C ?

          http://cellular-molecular-medicine.imedpub.com/sodiumglucose-cotransporter-2-inhibitors-could-improve-the-bioavailability-of-vitamin-c-at-the-kidney-in-diabetes-treatment.pdf

          “… pacients treated with empagliflozin,
          a SGLT 2 inhibitor, their serum vitamin C
          levels (normal reference range, 5.5 μg/ml to 16.8 μg/ml) have
          been observed to increase soon after its administration.”
          ” Ascorbic acid, a reduced form of vitamin C, or glucose enters cells
          specifically through SVCT or SGLT, driven by the inward sodium
          gradient maintained with sodium pump (Na+/K+-ATPase).
          Dehydroascorbic acid, an oxidized form of vitamin C, enters or
          exits cells competitively with glucose through facilitative
          glucose transporters (GLUTs) [3,5]. “

        5. sirsna, I would need to think about this one.
          What might be happening is that the serum levels are increasing because the vitamin C is being blocked from entering the cells.
          I am not sure whether this is really what you want with Vitamin C treatment: You want the Vitamin C inside the cells.
          I also noticed what happened to the glucose excretion. Wow!! There was a large increase in glucose excreted.

          In some cancer treatments reducing glucose is very desirable.
          Hmm, phlorizin is another SGLT inhibitor.

        6. Hi J,
          I dont know if they look or not in gene sequencing tests but there is a transporter SVCT-2 sodium-dependent vitamin C transporter 2.
          And its expression level is highly associated with vit C responce.

        7. Good one Erg!

          I was not aware of this.
          Do you have a reference?
          I had only heard of antioxidant genes such as Catalase etc. associated with responses.

          It is hard for me to understand why the research has not taken advantage of this after all these years.
          The research from the 1970s found a fair number of people who had good responses to Vitamin C.
          Why not run the test so that those who could be helped were?

        8. This transporter section is amazing J.
          Expression of transporters on cancer cells changes the game.
          Really one day they will starve cancer by blocking nutrient transporters.

        9. I am writing nearly in all posts.May be one day one of us will begin to use dapagliflozin (forxiga),cabagliflozin etc.
          Most cancer cells express SGLT and cancer uses this transporter to take glucose.

          It sounds fantastic but REAL.It is sold in pharmacies.

        10. Thanks, Ergin !
          I am trying to take Dapagliflozin 5mg each day together with 2mg Metformin (and some other meds, too). I could not get other SGLT inhibitors (phlorizin etc).
          I will take them in between chemos, but stop few days prior chemo (as I do with Metformin).

        11. Hi Sirsna,
          If i were the patient ,i would directly use dapagliflozin.But please becareful for hypoglycemia,your blood glucose will drop too much.I am not sure about 2gr metformin?
          How is your blood glucose level?
          And why dont you use dapagliflozin continiously.?Chemo will work better.
          Although we dont have too much data about
          the therapeutic (effective)dosage for dapagliflozin,it is very clear that you will get benefit when used chronically.
          Btw 5 mg may be low.
          Please update us.You are the first in the world that we know.

        12. Hi Ergin!
          My point of using Dapagliflozin was :
          1) I want to more starve cancer cells between chemo courses (I have every 3 weeks carbo+docetax);
          2) this is drug that I can access;
          3) I am periodically on Keto diet (from D :”SGLT2 inhibitors should fit nicely ketogenic diet since SGLTs are probably over-expressed in those patients.”);
          4) I already use for long time metformin, statins, dipyridamole, basentabs etc.

        13. My chemo is carbo+docetax and 3 times it was performed in dextrose 5 % solution, last time in NaCl solution. As my glucose readings all the time was normal (4-5.5mmol/l) and only after chemo glucose jumped to 8 or 10 or even 15 mmol/l, I suspected dextrose solution was indicator for glucose jump.
          In last chemo there was no dextrose, but glucose jumped to 10mmol for few hours.
          Now I think it is cancer who creates high blood glucose in stress to survive.

        14. Anyway, my chemo is supported with small insulin shot. I think it is better no to mix insulin, NaCl or Dextrose solution with SGLT inhibitors.
          So I have medications for chemo days and other medications for days between chemos (I am not sure this is god approach but that is all I can figure out myself as no one support me in this idea and I am not medical professional).
          I fast or intermittent fast in days before chemo. Here I had question about cancer cells autophagy in stress situations as survival mechanism. I wanted to try hydroxychloroquine, but scientific articles have opposite views on use in tnbc.

        15. Dear Sirsna,
          From yesterday till now i am thinking what to write to you.
          What i understand from my past 2 years experience:If the cancer researcher is the patient him/her self ,they are more brave about using new treatments.Because they are responsible from their own.
          I have entered in a different physcology and i begin to think that i am forcing you or others to use dapagliflozin.Thats why Daniel always talks and approaches cautiously.Later we will feel terrible if stg goes wrong. (Read 5 times and begin with low dosage to every new treatment)

          For me sglt inhibitor dapagliflozin (i think you you choose it because you can reach it in pharmacy easily)is very promising and special.But now what is our aim by choosing dapagliflozin?
          1.It reduces glucose on cancer cells on some days.
          2.It helps chemo?
          It blocks glucose entry into cancer cells but also blocks some other drugs like Vitc,oleuropein etc.
          How they use it in phlorizin patent?:
          They totally block glucose in one day and after that they fight with all weapons like chemo and hyperthermia.And there is a very good point there,they continue treatment,fasting etc for some hours.Because cancer repairs itself by using glucose by using sglt.
          Here we use dapagliflozin chronically and after some weeks may be there will be no glucose in cancer cells.We have only 1 article,mice test.
          Btw if you will get pet scan these days,tell it dr please,may be they will see no tumor as you know. (Just a reminder).
          Some drugs shows their ability after some weeks.lf used chronically.I have 3 examples.
          1.The scientist who is working on nano-silver told me a story.He throw away the lab trays into trash because it does not working on bee-virus.
          Later he looks into trash and saw the good result.
          2.Some scientists throw away the trays which oleuropein and cancer cells inside.But after that,a group understands that oleuropein is working as late apoptotic.
          3.Tinzaparin:After 3 days but continious , it totally reverts gene disorders.
          I hope you understand what i mean and it helps a little bit on choosing your way.
          Kind regards
          Ergin

        16. Dear Sirsna.
          If i am not mistaken, the chemo that is being given to you is meant to kill the fast dividing cells (cancer). If you will attempt to slow the cancer with various methods in the last 3 days before chemo, it may be that chemo itself may be less effective. Please reflect on this. I believe timing is also important even if i am not right about this. There has to be an exact good plan, else no plan could be better than a wrong plan. Please try to talk to the doctors.
          Best wishes.
          Alex

        17. Thanks Ergin! This article is a very nice one given their findings, statements and the fact the article was published in one of Nature’s group journals (i.g. very respected and serious journals).
          I specifically like this statement:
          “Finally, retrospective cohort study showed that intravenous VC use was linked to improved disease-free survival (DFS) in HCC patients (adjusted HR = 0.622, 95% CI 0.487 to 0.795, p < 0.001). Our data highlight that pharmacologic VC can effectively kill liver cancer cells and preferentially eradicate liver CSCs, which provide further evidence supporting VC as a novel therapeutic strategy for HCC treatment."

        18. Yes, Erg this is a very nice one. Now that a benefit has clearly been found, they can move this forward by trying other dosing or combo schedules.

          It is stunning that China could run a clinical trial with 600 relatively homogeneous HCC patients and end the debate about the effectiveness of Vitamin C.
          With the Scottish results the debate continued on for almost 50 years and might go on another 50 years. I will anxiously wait to see how China can make this even better.

        19. J i have an extraordinary news for you.
          They begin 100gr Iv vitC /day.
          3 X week.
          And high dose iv curcumin like 1,5 gr that i never tried before.I will update.

        20. HI Ergin and J,

          As I wrote in the post above sometime ago, it seems that GLUTs are the most relevant for the take up of DHA (the oxidized form of Vit C). Please also see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4783474/

          This means Vit C should not work with GLUT inhibitors. But low glucose blood level should help Vit C (DHA) absorption as they compete for the same transporters. This means fasting should help prior to Vit C treatments. So better administer Vit C in the morning before food.
          In advanced cancers, blood glucose level is high regardless of the diet. In that case Vit C may be less or not effective. In that case Hydrazine may help enable Vit C effectivness https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/addressing-gluconeogenesis/

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        21. Hi Daniel,
          I will enter hydrazine subject because i see you like it.And logically it deserves research.Reducing blood glucose during treatments has a clear benefit without playing transporters which may also block drug enterance into cancer cell like vitc but not chemo for the article(mice trial if you remember chemo works perfect with sglt inhibitors).
          And also it may reduce the bg levels while taking chemo which premedication (before chemo)make it to rise extreme bg levels.
          I saw this for some patients.

        22. Hi Ergin,

          Thanks for the response. I actually do not like that much hydrazin because it may also have side effects. But when life is in dangerous due to fast wasting and large tumors … hydrazine may be one of our best tools until we find a better substance that inhibits gluconeogenesis but without it’s side effects.
          What I do like, is the understanding of how inflammation/wasting/uncontrolled blood glucose/fast tumor growth are all related and what are the tolls to stop this cycle.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        23. Hi Daniel,
          I catch it but i have no answer.
          Please do not think that your message gone away.
          This is really the most exciting and unkown section in cancer for me.
          inflamation/wasting etc
          But i really wonder
          Kind Regards
          Ergin

        24. I have to make it clear.The substance are using is not only oleuropein.They mix fig latex with oleuropein.
          There is a research about oleuropein uses glut.
          So there should be a glucose molecule.

          There is an interview with this inventor and he is saying that oleuropein is the cure of cancer just like Citric acid and Halabe.So that makes me alittle bit nervous but deserves research.

        25. Dear Ergin,

          I looked into oleuropein as you suggested. Looks like it also has benefits for the brain: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5392257/

          I wonder about the method to mix it with fig latex. How is that produced? From unripe figs maybe? We have fig trees in our garden so I know figs can be very sticky and have that milky juice coming out of the fruit when cut into it. That might be it?

          My best,
          Helga

        26. Dear Helga,
          I really dont know how to prepare oleuropein+fig latex.The substance is in black colour.%6 oleuropein they said.I gave it to a lady colon ca 3 weeks ago.Dr said her to go home and die.She is alive but no blood counts no Pet,no Ct.Stopped vomiting same day.
          Another patient (lung ca)he has very high CRP despite antibiotics,only after 1 day CRP begin to decline without antibiotics(just like my mom).He also begin optiva same day.So icannot say anything about its anticancer efficiency.But a very goood CRP deplettor.I never understand how it works.
          I can send you a bottle if you send me an adress.
          Kind regards
          Ergin

        27. Dear ERgin,

          That is very kind of you. I’ll write my address to you by email. Fig latex is black? Interesting. I have to investigate more. Kind regards,
          Helga

        28. Dear Helga,
          I am highly interested in natural antimicrobials,antiparasites etc.They can be very effective anticancer drugs.
          As you know they tested 16.000 substances on resistive cancer cells.And salinomycin,an antibiotic is the winner.

        29. Brother. How are you? Please, don’t be angry with me, after your mother, i said to myself, what will i say to my brother? After your father, i realize, there is nothing i can say or do to make you feel better. Please try to relax…. and please, if you want to talk, i am on skype always. Please don’t be angry with me. I just don’t know what to say or do after all this shock. The feelings i have are beyond words.
          Alex

        30. Hi Ergin,

          Maybe you could consolidate your finding on Oleuroperin and share them with us here?

          You could focus on addressing the following:
          1. What is the general story behind (where is it coming from and relevance to cancer, etc.)
          2. What is the science behind and known anticancer mechanisms
          3. Anecdotal reports (such as those you mentioned) and case reports in humans (if available)
          4. Where to buy it and how to administer

          This could help. Otherwise your points about Oleuropein will remain hidden in the many comments, and that would be a pity if this natural extract is indeed valuable.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        31. What happened Ergin? Why you could not send comments? Can you please explain so that I identify what was the origin and repair if that happens again? Thanks.

        32. Hi Daniel,
          If you are logged off,it wants from you to confirm if you are robot or not.
          BItw i am entering from android and while writing it is very slow and sometimes it misses some words.But still a perfect website😀.
          Kind regards
          Ergin

        33. Hi Ergin,

          Thank you for the feedback. 🙂
          I will check again the verification option. Regarding the speed when writing comments, I think the developer who helped me with the technical issues implemented a kind of “lazy” function that applies to writing but also displaying photos, in order to overcome some potential high CPU usage. I will check if I can do anything about that too.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        34. Here people are using oleuropein 5X5ml/day.
          %6 oleuropein inside.
          The team is working on iv oleuropein in Switzerland.They said 40 times more effective than oral usage.But as far as i read,its bioavailibity is perfect.After 30 min. It is in blood for 5 hours.

        35. Couldn’t find free articles. Anyway, bioavailability seems to vary with sex and age, and it’s not just Oleuropein but also Hydroxytyrosol (ingested as such and transformed from Oleuropein by probiotics) that have anti-cancer properties. Keep in mind that in Olive leaf extract you can also find other substances, usually anti-oxidants. Oleuropein seems to be a copper ionophore, Her2 inhibitor, HIF-1a inhibitor, VEFGR2 inhibitor (Hydroxytyrosol is an EGFR inhibitor, Stat3 ihibitor and VEGFR2 inhibitor), and it acts like an antioxidant for normal cells and prooxidant for cancer cells, but other compounds in olive leaf extract may behave like antioxidants for both. Pure Oleuropein from SCBT is kind of expensive, maybe it’s cheaper if you buy a bucket of it…

          Human absorption and metabolism of oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol ingested as olive (Olea europaea L.) leaf extract.
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23766098
          Bioavailability of phenolics from an oleuropein-rich olive (Olea europaea) leaf extract and its acute effect on plasma antioxidant status: comparison between pre- and postmenopausal women.
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24158653

        36. Very interesting and useful Ovidiu! Thank you! I very much appreciate this kind of valuable findings. I specifically find interesting to know that it may be a copper ionophore.

        1. Am very bored that i am in this website.
          How people can not see the truth about cancer.
          How you can not see the truth people?
          There is a science here.
          Really i am bored.
          When Daniel says use it ,all of us use it.
          Who will say the truth?
          I am sorry but one day you ll see the truth.
          Daniel can not say the truth.

        2. Dear Ergin,

          I read your comment and I am very disappointed …

          I never said anyone should use something specifically that would represent a cure. As also written in the Disclaimer, and I really mean it, I do not think that is ethical as long as there is no guaranty that something would work 100%. On this website, I did my best to consolidated know how around various potential solutions to cancer that are promising based on science and case reports in humans. That may not be enough for some, but it is the best we can get next to conventional treatments.

          Even more, people do not use usually what I think is the most promising. How many of those speaking here have been at a clinic or hospital to be treated with e.g. Salinomycin or Diflunisal? Or Phlorizin with chemo? Or with TACE? Etc. You do not have to answer this. It is just a rhetorical question.

          I understand what you are going through and I am truly sorry for that, but I am also sorry to see you are thinking/speaking in this way while I always did my best to respond to your questions here, by e-mail, or on my phone – which was time of my life given to you while not asking anything in return.

          My learning out of this: I should not respond to comments and questions anymore. Instead, I will only focus on writing posts.

          All the best,
          Daniel

        3. Yes my dear friend Daniel,
          Good friends always must talk the truth.
          You will see what i mean.
          I am very dissapointed about your words.

        4. I mean when Daniel likes a drug all of us use it,
          But think about the responsibilty for him.
          But he can not say the truth.

        5. If you Wish i can take the responsibilty and talk about the truth. And the treasure in your website which nobody saw.
          Or if you wish, i can create another brother website

        6. Dear All,

          Messages like this are now pushed to the right side of my screen. Do you experience the same? BTW, we increased vit C now for my mother (600mg,1000mg, 600mg, all retard, i.e. released gradually over time, the morning and evening doses combined with Zinc) and she definitely seems to be better. We even walked today to my local pub, which was the first venture outside our home for her since she was released from the hospital.

        7. Hello Daniel,

          Sorry to bother you but since I changed my password I am not able to log in as Helga. Or even weirder than that. In my profile I can see I am logged in but when trying to post, it won’t recognize me.

        8. On the other hand, I managed to change the behaviour of Chrome (by making the comments thinner and thinner in a thread) by opening “developers tools” and setting “padding” to zero. I was only half-aware of what I was doing so it was quite a lucky strike.

        9. Hi Helga,

          I now deactivated the spam filter – can you please let me know if you are still having this issue? If you still cannot login, let me know and will generate another password for you.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        10. Hi Daniel,

          I can log in but then have to still prove I am not a robot. My annoying appearance is also back: The messages like this one is split into a very thin, long box! Chrome 64 says I can change the look by “local overrides” in developers tools but only in chrome 65 will it be available. Right now 8 characters are the maximum for one row. Exasperating.

        11. Hi Helga,

          Thnaks. I see.
          The robot thing is meant to reduce the spam registrations I get – if this is something you and others can deal with and not very annoying, I would keep it active. Otherwise please let me know and I will deactivate and search for another solution.
          On the other hand, the issue with the very thin comment box, I think is related to the fact that you are responding to a msg that has a very long line of replies. Normally I should have limit that to max 10 replies, and I may do that again to avoid such issues. If you would post a new comment, I would expect you will not have this problem again. Could you please check that and see if it works posting a new comment (i.e. not a reply to another comment). Thank you!

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        12. I am angry you are right.But angry to myself and cancer.After my loss my mind totally changed,i can see everything very clear.
          Because now i can look from outside.
          How we use this valuable website wrongly.
          I know i lost too many points from people which i gain in 2 years.But this will make people to think wisely.
          If someone beat me months ago hey man what are you doing ,,,now i would be more and more happy.

          I have very good news about oleuropein and fig milk.Please give me a week to be sure.

        13. I understand. I am glad to hear about good news. That always helps.
          While science based criticism helps to increase quality of our understanding, our mindset has to be positive. That is the only way for the world to advance. Otherwise there is no point in spending our time here.

        14. hey Ergin,

          first of all thank you for your kind words the other day.

          I am sure there are not many people who can understand what you go through with two losses in such a short time (after such a long battle).

          Because of this I am sure your message above was just probably badly written due to the crazily negative emotions you must feel now.

          we are interested in your new ideas, as always, Ergin! Please elaborate if you are ready.

          PS: listen to music as much as you can !! helps rewire one’s brain.

        15. Good evening friends . I have seen a lot of discussion about the additional comments on the articles. My personal opinion is that they are very useful, often full of real-world news and experiences. Data about the topics discussed are everywhere on the net, Daniel is sacrificing his time and centralizing everything backed up by clinical trials and research. But what you do not find elsewhere on the net are just the comments here, which are fantastically well documented. Sharing experiences is what matters at a forum, that’s really what it’s meant for. Normally and naturally there are comets that are written under the empathy (we all know that they are not light, not sick or sick as a relative), but simply go over them because it does not help you. Their percentage is somewhere at 1%, virtually no matter. As well as Ergin said, the site is a treasure, but let’s not forget that in the same box it is also the comments.

        16. Hi Sive,
          Comments are very useful when you can add feedback about treatments.This will help millions at the end.For example Dr Hada’s protocol about thalidomide:It is unfortunately impossible to use celecoxib everyday and his dosage.Because you will see a ZERO paletlets in week 1.
          Citric acid:Halabe said cure in 2 weeks but if used alone,No it is not.But maybe helps chemo in reality.There is no feedback.
          And we can add more.
          Btw if i have chance to edit my comments i will erase lots of them.Especially the ones written during nights😀.
          Kind Regards
          Ergin

        17. And we have also very positive feedbacks like latest post about fasting.
          And everypeople should look at Emad’s protocols.
          He is very clever and brave like Daniel.
          I am reserving phlorizin for Emad.I think again he will be the first user.

        18. Dear DANIEL
          Please tell me when i write stg serious and about reality,why there is a very big silence?
          Am i doing stg wrong?

        19. Hi Ergin,

          Sometimes silence may also mean agreement or that people are thinking about the meaning of some statements. Sometimes people are too busy to respond. Sometimes people just don’t read. I don’t know. These are just some possibilities.

          Regarding your last statement, I totally agree: Emad did a great job by implementing so fast all those treatments … and most importantly his mom saw multiple times response to the treatments starting from DCA+chemo and up to TACE. Would be great if you could indeed, further help him Ergin.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        20. Dear Daniel,
          My only aim is to help cancer patients from now on as you know.You are a perfect moderator if we talk about the truth.
          I know how you help people not only with skype. Also you help people from your own salary I am the proof.Nobody knows how you are a very Vip person.
          I entered this website while searching Salinomycin honestly.
          And i saw Emad and You.
          HELPING EMAD IS AN HONOUR FOR ME.
          Kind Regards
          Ergin

        21. Thanks Ergin. Just doing what we can to help those we can help. Half of that it was your contribution and that you should remember too. And you helped others too. This is what brings us here Ergin, with different approaches like you once said but same purpose. And this is the best thing you can do in life, i.e. do our best to have positive impact around us, as much as we can. Have a good night!

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        22. Erg, you have this enormous energy that you have directed against cancer and I must admit that your raw emotional statements have charged up my batteries on many occasions. I also realize that when I am like that I can often say things that others take the wrong way. I will interpret your comments in the way that I am sure that you intended them, i.e. as a rage against cancer and the ongoing failure for many patients to find any reasonable treatments that would help them.

          As D says below it is highly frustrating that many patients simply are never able to put all the information together into something that would help them. I have recently seen a great wisdom for patients to jump on a plane and head for someplace such as Dayspring because these clinics can assemble a meaningful treatment plan.

        23. Thanks J and W.
          This is not about my physcology.
          Today i will talk with science.Where we are?What we did ?What is the result?What we understand till now?
          Only J understand what i mean.

        24. Hey Erg,
          I think I get you. I think cancer will be beaten. With time. With the proper mindset. If you and I will live then? I dont know.

        25. Yes W,
          You have a good chance to get benefit if you are in Daniel’s website.But also there is an opposite chance if you dont read the whole articles.
          I dont want to make pollution in this valuable vitc article which smells full knowledge and job.
          I will write from other page which Daniel create for me to get help from people.

        26. Hi Ergin and All,

          If you have ideas on how to improve this website to make sure it only helps people and reduces the chances for a negative contribution, please let me know and will do my best to improve.
          For example, I was thinking that allowing comments on the articles may distract people from actually reading the article. An idea could be to disable the comments so that readers can only comment in the Forum section and not on the posts. What do you think? Thank you in advance.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        27. Hi Daniel,
          I will first send you my message to you from now on.
          And you will choose to publish it or not.
          I have faith in you more than I have for myself.
          I can not deny that you helped me too much,lots of hours, lots of communications.
          Your voice my friend,soft like a dad.
          You are not only my friend,also my family.
          Yes ,this website needs stg different but that is not because of you.
          Please keep yourself out of this.
          It is not your responsibilty.

        28. That means when you create a post, that does not mean that you used that treatment or you know someone who used it.Just science.

        29. Most of the treatments I wrote about I either used them or was ready to use (I had them in the refrigerator) unless I only recently learned about them. We had no option in terms of conventional treatments due to the rarity of the cancer type and as a results no drugs available. That is the reason I had to look for new treatments with real potential. In general, the treatments I write about are selected not only based on science but also case reports in humans. Otherwise there are many others that have only science. If I know someone that used the treatment I write about that too. I speak with a lot of people and that helps me to get some view on what seems to have value.

          However, people have to think/feel for themselves and hopefully together with their doctors what make sense and what not for their specific case. What I write on this website is what I would have liked to find when I was in search for solutions and had very limited time. This is why I am disappointing when I realize part of visitor are not actually reading the posts but are starting to discuss the subjects. No one should take as total truth what they read here or on other websites. They should only use information as input and not as output. They should digest that and come to own conclusion that could be same or different. In contrast to that, what becomes nearly every day clear to me is that people would like to get solutions to their problem with the minimum effort. That in general is good, but in oncology we need to maximize our efforts. Ask help, but think for yourself at the same time. Unfortunately, in oncology no one is more suitable to be in the driving seat for the decisions more than the patient and/or the care giver. But the reality is that being in the driving seat comes with responsibility and in turn that comes with very high pressure – and only a few can deal with that. But I still recommend to everyone to take the responsibility in own hands and decide for themselves – don’t just apply what others are saying or writing on the web (including this website) without careful considerations.

        30. Hi Daniel

          I think those not reading the entries are not missing out on those because of the comments, to me it does not make much sense.

          so even if you were to take away the comments the situation would remain the same – some poeple reading, some people not.

          I personally read for instance like 90% – but it might be that i commented on a page that i haven’t read BUT i found the comment itself interesting. but even without the comment i would not have read the page for some reason. (because i am not interested / affected by it, like cachexia. )

          SO if I were you, I would not change the place of the comments.

        31. Hi W,

          Thnaks a lot for your response. I realize you are reading most – I was actually referring to a few friends here who are not reading and they know who they are 🙂

          Yes, the intention with the comments section was to add value to people as they are able to interact, but in my view this is secondary to the higher purpose of this website, which is to represent a positive reference point for cancer patients and caregivers – so that when they are left without any option, they realize that many more options are available (with good supporting evidence) and learn how to access and apply that fast.

          Lately, I started to feel that this added value of the posts is canceled out by comments via the following:
          – taking away the attention from the actual posts
          – negativity generated in the discussions

          Oncology is a field dominated by fear, anger and negativity – so I understand the origin of that but I realize more and more that I do not want to host that here as it is the opposite of who I am and my purpose here. This is a little more behind my thoughts on what to do with the comments section.

          On the other hand I see the value that comes with being able to interact, so I will keep it for a while as is and hope to see it evolving into a more balanced environment.

          Thanks again for your response here and for your constant valuable contribution,
          Daniel

        32. hi D,

          thanks for your detailed feedback.

          I absolutely understand where you come from but i think this is temporary.

        33. Hi Ergin. Thank you, but there are many brave mans and women around and you are one of them. I am glad we succeeded to find a balance again so that we can move forward with discussions focused on content.

        34. D, sorry for being all over the place though I would really like to know your opinion on this one.

          PMID: 26554156
          http://www.iontopatch.com/

          You thinking what I’m thinking?

          Wow, mostly whenever a patient wants to go intratumoral they start directly injecting with a needle! How does that make sense when you could just go in without even breaking the layer of the skin? Might only apply to easily reachable tumors on the skin, though.

        35. D, thanks for confirming what I was seeing.

          Patent, what patent?

          The company has FDA clearance to sell their product without any medicine added. The videos show that basically the patient could load up their patches with whatever they wanted to (within certain chemical limits, though I am not totally clear what those limits might be, yet size of the chemical would be an obvious one.)

          The intended indication is for physiotherapy etc., however I can see no particular reason why this would not apply to other indications. Getting away from iv injections if possible would be welcomed by many. I was also wondering whether this might not allow for more targeted delivery by using the blood system. For instance, let’s say that you had a stomach tumor, perhaps you find the blood vessel that supplied the tumor and then use iontophoresis to direct the drug to this supplying blood vessel. You could have much more targeted delivery with better results and less side effects.

          Just think of mito-3-BP with this approach!
          Not sure how deep the drugs would go, some of the research seems to suggest that it does go fairly deep.

          This has a lot of potential!

        36. D, there is so much exciting research! When is there even time to sleep?

          Active mitochondria are hot? Certainly raises a bunch of questions for me. Could you use this for more specific targeting of cancer mitochondria or to protect healthy mitochondria. Is this thermal effect part of why cancer cells shut down there mitochondria?

          PMID: 29370167

        37. Hi J, I cannot find PMID: 29370167. Maybe you could share the link? It’s always best to share the link on this website since the copy function is disable.

        38. Title: “Mitochondria are physiologically maintained at close to 50 °C”

          I’m just going through “Tumour endoproteases: the cutting edge of cancer drug delivery?”. Very exciting!
          So there is a whole new type of prodrug that is actually tumor specific? Very interesting!

          Before with prodrugs it was more that you had a toxic drug under the prodrug and then it might be exposed by the liver. You then have a toxic drug floating around your body! With TAPs the toxic drug is only exposed inside of cancer cells! Smart!

          I am starting to think that we could have very effective treatments by never even using toxic drugs! Why not put e.g. methyglyoxal onto a TAP and then perhaps curcumin onto a TAP and then perhaps a GSH depletor onto a tap? If you can specifically target cancer cells with TAPs, why risk toxicity? You can treat with a whole bunch of non-toxics.

      1. Dear Ergin, it is no way an insult. Thanks for support !!!
        I agree to Your message and, to be honest, I was so tired of everything, so I spent a time with my little daughters , we went to snowy forest walk and I was surprised that I do not have any bone pain after this long walk (I used to have pain 3 month ago after long walking). I feel my cancer sites practically immediately or after some time when I consume some products with high glycemic load. Today I woked up with “chinese eyes”. Maybe kidney function problems or too much water or salt , or Dapagliflozin. Today trying to recover.

    1. sirsna, another good one!

      I had not been sure about articles online that were proposing a more moderate dosing strategy using Vitamin C, I thought that more is better might apply, though this had not been clarified in the research. I am very glad that you referenced to this latest research showing how a moderate dosing approach can help with cancer stem cells. I wish that you are doing well while you cope with your current challenges and that I can offer you suggestions that you might find useful. Sincerely, J

      1. Jcancom, Thank You for Your kind words ! Sometimes these kind words are very in time. I appreciate it very much :).
        Good luck to You! I will come back to vit C after chemo, I suppose. If You want to contact me directly, I posted my email yesterday.

        1. We are using antibiotics just in time,exact dosage to our child.Isnt it?
          Why we are not so serious about cancer?
          Scientists produce resistive cancer cells by using a one dosage of chemo like platin.
          And also they produce resistive bacteries by this way.
          Dapagliflozin is very different than anyother cancer drug.There may be a cure chance with a good protocol in my thoughts.
          We have to talk with blood counts or Bt scans if we want to get and give help.
          I dont like the sentence:that drug helped me alot.If you leave the drug you are probably resistive to that drug.
          My agresive style is all about this from days.
          I can not sleep easily.Because i feel responsibility about dapagliflozin.

        2. dear Ergin, leave emotions, focus on things You want to do :). What do You suggest? Maybe we can go to Forum section?
          I didnt want to comment here anymore, as I have feeling , that sites owner is somehow angry to me or at least chill. Do not want to continue this way. I followed D recommendation very careful last year with focus on bone mets during radiation sessions. After aggressive appearance of liver mets and bone mets progression during few month I again red lots of posts&comments carefully, but it is hard to make treatment plan on my own. So I took that info from here, that I could understand. That`s all.
          For example about vit C – we talked for months with J and only few month later D gave small comment that his point is not to use vit C during chemo because of Hylarion acid. It is very clear said but why that is not mentioned in post? I could not made that logic chain myself.
          Ergin, I know that my cancer is not beatable, but I believe that with good plan it is possible to have longer time to be here. My cancer was found when my youngest girl was only 7 month old, now she is 5 and I hope, that she will remember me. Where we can continue to talk? I do not want to put pressure on You in no way.
          take care,
          i.

        3. Dear Sirsna,
          Cancer is beatable if you are here.
          Believe me there are perfect treatments in this website.People pay thousands of euros to Germany.Same treatments free here.
          I am near you forever.I can send you drugs which you can not reach easily.Like salinomycin if you want to use.
          Yes i feel responsiblity with only 1 drug.But think about Daniel.
          Hard work.
          Thats all my fault because of my emotions and physcology.
          APOLOGIZE TO ALL.
          I HAVE TO STOP THIS URGENTLY.

        4. Hi Ergin,

          I am glad you are back 🙂
          I think you had your solution to the emotions: writing in the morning instead of the evening or night.

          One other solution that is both ethical and will release some part of the feeling of responsibility is to focus on specific subject and not on specific people. Do not recommend to anyone anything. That is the role of the medical doctor. Here we are researchers, investigators of the oncology subject. So, just explain what you have learned, what would you do and what you would not do if you would deal with that or that cancer.
          Also, many of best people in the world have the tendency to get stuck to one perspective. Being aware about that helps so that you can zoom out and try to find new perspectives of addressing cancer. This is not something you do but I just mention it as I find it very important when we try to understand a problem.

          I hope this helps.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        5. Dear Ieva,

          There is no way I am angry on you. You probably concluded this because I did not answered your e-mails lately. It is true, lately I did not had the time to answer many e-mails from many people I like and appreciate. The reason for this is that I still have to work full time. The other little time left I now focus on finding a way to move the Foundation forward to make a difference in this world. For that, the Foundation needs financial support and I am now thinking about ways to get that. Also, I agreed at my work to stop my current job this summer so I can focus on oncology. But I also have to think how I can live with no salary. So you see, there are so many things to do and have only 24h/day. Writing takes time, but if you like we can speak on Skype – that should be more efficient. Please note that I cannot suggest anything. I can only give you ideas. Also, we need to discuss the Vit C point since from your remark I realize what I wrote may have been misunderstood.
          Please do not forget, the only way to have chance for success is to have a positive mindset. Please be positive and expect only positive regardless of what happens around you. If you like to speak on Skype, I can find time this evening. Just let me know what time (Amsterdam time) and Skype ID.

          Kind regards,
          Daniel

        6. Hi ErginThank you for returning, this forum needs people with knowledge and experience.Where do you get the salinomycin ?,may be required in the near future
          kind regards

        7. Thanks alot,
          I bought it from sigma.But it is imposibbe to prepare it without Daniels help.
          Night is coming i have to shut down my internet😀

        8. Erg, I certainly understand your comments recently about how things are so much clearer after the stress has been lifted. This is very true. I also share your frustration that this cannot be clear to others before hand and not afterwards.

          Glad to have you back and making contributions to our discussions.

        9. Yes J,You can see very clear after you loose the fight like me.
          As you see still we could not find a drug which works alone,(in theory or lab test yes we find,we will work upto find).
          Except metabolic treatment like fasting,phlorizin(dapagliflozin maybe),heat ,3BPetc.

          I only saw a very good responce with chemo(platin+taxane), in 2 months CA125 declined to near zero.
          Than what happened?.Sleeping stem cells come with a revenge which chemo does not work.

          May be we are using drugs wrongly after recurrence.Our first aim must be to improve chemo effectiveness and using salinomycin maybe for stem cells and or metabolic treatment.

          Doing treatments after chemo is not logical for me If we are dealing with resistive cells.

        10. I hope i am not misunderstood.I am talking about improving chemoeffectiveness.Most clinics uses drugs same day before chemo.Like Vitc+iv curcumin etc.
          I want to talk about LMWH (low molecular weight heparin).
          Tinzaparin which is sold in pharmacies is a very interesting drug.In lab tests they found that it downregulates nearly 600 genes.Think about the mechanisms of drugs that we are talking about from months,put all together and produce 1 drug.Tinzaparin is better from all in lab test.
          And it is not about its anticoagulative mechanism upto article which may be dangerous for bleeding .It is again sensitive to chemo just like before but only after continious usage of 3 days.(lab test)
          If we think wisely ,%33 cancer patients dies from embolism (6 fold increase risk for cancer patients),tinzaparin is a good drug despite its bleeding side-effect.

        11. Iam not telling people to use tinzaparin directly.
          If you are agree that you have embolism(sometimes doctors doesnt understand because blocking a vein with tumor and embolism have same results on blood counts).You can show the tinzaparin article to your doctor.

        12. Last thing about my understanding and experience :
          I like doctors who tells the truth and honest.This gives you a chance to use more powerful drugs without afraiding and loosing time,when you know how much time you have.Fighting with cancer is a serious work.You can not beat cancer with curcumin pills or vitc tablets.1/1000 chance.You have to adress more weak points of cancer.
          Positive energy is a must ofcourse.

        13. I lost my mom because of pulmonary embolism.First,i saw edema on only one leg.When we went to dr,no edema.The blood cloth went to lungs i think.They didnt understand.No scan because of allergy.If you are cancer patient,everything is possible on blood counts for Doctors.
          Honestly:we afraid to give tinzaparin unfortunately.

        14. At some point doctors enter a mode in which they stop thinking about solutions, and “place a stamp” on the patient. Actually, the system does not allow them maintaining patients with serious challenges due to financial reasons. That is the point when the patient and his care givers have to start being in the driving seat regarding next steps.

        15. HI Ergin, indeed in my opinion when fighting advanced/aggressive forms of cancer we better start from beginning using the best tools. I think, Herbs and supplements are very good but as supportive tools. Next to that we need powerful strategies such as Sal + 3bp +2dg, chemo + phlorezin + hyperthermia, chemo + sal + phlorezin, diflunisal, chemo + thalidomide, high dose taurolidine, high dose curcumin. For most of these, I have direct confirmation that at least in some cases it worked. One medical doctor I know was even complaining that when using Sal + 3bp +2dg (but also including authophagy inhibitor like Tetrandrine), there was often too much TLS.
          It is human to usually tent to start with easier treatments and see what happens, but based on my experience I would directly start with some of the combos mentioned above and not loose time.

        16. Hi Daniel,
          Thank you very much for this message.
          I am very relaxed.Now it depends on people to use stronger treatments or not.

        17. Hi Daniel!
          Very happy for Your comment. Will try to contact You in near future! I think I understand Your difficulties.
          Thank You,
          i.

        18. Great Ieva. If you cannot speak today, just let me know a few days in advance for other options so we can plan the call.

          Have a nice weekend,
          Daniel

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