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Jcancom
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27/06/2020 4:59 am  

D, thank you for making note of IV Honokiol!

Metronomic OXPHOS inhibition? This might be a first that I am aware of (perhaps metronomic Methylglyoxal).

There is quite a bit of literature that I have read that speaks of OXPHOS being central to stem cells and metastasis. IV HK might be a great treatment to address these issues, while metronomic 2-DG and vitamin C address the glycolysis.

I think it is very strange that in the article they said that the patients could no longer gain access to this drug. With the responses that they were having, I would think that it would be ethically responsible to put in reasonable efforts to ensure that this drug was available to them.

Research found that combination honokiol and magnolol (two highly similar chemicals) had potent synergistic effect. Metronomic combination IV? 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5045382/pdf/oncotarget-07-29116.pdf


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Daniel
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27/06/2020 12:28 pm  

@jcancom Hi J, yes I thought the same. Strange they were not able to keep having the IV Honokiol. But then you realise that many on this forum are more advanced in accessibility compared to what a clinic in US can do. In US the clinic needs to have an approved pharmacy doing the preparations. If that stops due to any reason, even if the doctor knows how to prepare it, he will not do prepare the IV solution himself due to legal issues. Some of us here would just make it at home. Actually this makes me curious and I am going to check today how easy is to make the IV Honokiol formulation.

Kind regards,
Daniel


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Jcancom
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27/06/2020 3:38 pm  

Yes, the article noted that due to a second instance of unavailability of IV honokiol the prostate patient decline and then passed away. Patient activism might be required in order that proper medical care is provided to these patients with very serious health care challenges. I am constantly disappointed at how fundamental human rights of patients are continually compromised and ignored. The very strong results presented for IV honokiol in the article highlight how important respecting those rights are for patient. While both the patients were on chemotherapy, I am still quite impressed at how large the responses by these patients were. As with other metabolic treatments, the patients had rapid symptomatic improvement and these improvements along with the improved biomarkers persisted through time even after the treatment was stopped and then restarted. Perhaps metabolic treatments (in particular honokiol) target such fundamental biological process (metabolism) in an integrated way that resistance to treatment is more difficult to occur.

Do IV solutions typically not have a built-in antibiotic? I have this also quite odd. In medical care a great deal of effort and instruction is devoted to ensuring that proper sterile technique is used. You can have a perfectly sterile product made in a GMP certified facility, yet as soon as you puncture the IV bag sterility can easily be compromised. I then found it somewhat surprising that the IV formulation for honokiol did not appear to have any microbial stabilizing agent. Shouldn't this be considered standard? Or perhaps they could have the IV formulation and then a minimal dose of antibiotics could be added to maintain a microbe free infusion. Considering that the IV formulation included dextrose, one might think that an antibiotic would be helpful.

 


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Jcancom
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27/06/2020 3:48 pm  

The IV honokiol results were quite strong. After all of these years that we have collectively been investigating alternative cancer treatments, IV Hk compares favorably to our best results. This illustrates one of the biggest challenges faced in integrative medicine: signalling effects. FDA approved drugs that cost up to a million dollars send strong signals to patients about their perceived worth and efficacy.

However, alternative medicines are unable to send these signals and consequently people perceive them as not being of value. Yet, as we can see with IV Hk, integrative medicine can have very powerful treatment effects. When 3-BP becomes available this will made quite clear. As an industrial herbicide 3-BP is literally worth $1,000 a ton, as an approved medical therapy it could be worth $ 1 million per gram. Unfortunately, people are usually only able to see the value, when value is reflected in price and not actual worth.         


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johan
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27/06/2020 6:47 pm  
Posted by: @daniel

But then you realise that many on this forum are more advanced in accessibility compared to what a clinic in US can do.

D., I think you're overestimating the capability of most of us here. This is true for a few, most people need out-of-the box solutions.


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johan
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27/06/2020 6:53 pm  
Posted by: @jcancom

However, alternative medicines are unable to send these signals and consequently people perceive them as not being of value. Yet, as we can see with IV Hk, integrative medicine can have very powerful treatment effects. When 3-BP becomes available this will made quite clear. As an industrial herbicide 3-BP is literally worth $1,000 a ton, as an approved medical therapy it could be worth $ 1 million per gram. Unfortunately, people are usually only able to see the value, when value is reflected in price and not actual worth.         

J, I think one problem is that the people that are invested in modern medicine go the great lengths to confuse the public about the alternatives that are out there. The confusion starts with the categorization, most anything outside modern medicine is categorized as alternative. Thus IV Honokiol is alternative, as is drinking cow's urine.


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Daniel
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27/06/2020 11:11 pm  

@jcancom

Hi J, 

IV solutions do not contain antibiotics. 

You said " In medical care a great deal of effort and instruction is devoted to ensuring that proper sterile technique is used.". That is true, but when it comes to applying these instructions many in the medical space are failing. This is how many patients get infected port-a-cat in the hospitals. 

We often work more sterile at home compared to some hospitals. I've seen that is often the case.

That is because we only have one patient, while in the hospital we are one of many.

Kind regards,
Daniel 


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Daniel
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27/06/2020 11:56 pm  
Posted by: @johan
Posted by: @daniel

But then you realise that many on this forum are more advanced in accessibility compared to what a clinic in US can do.

D., I think you're overestimating the capability of most of us here. This is true for a few, most people need out-of-the box solutions.

Hi Johan. You are right. I was thinking more to the potential and not to the current situation.

By that I mean: based on my experience, nearly everyone who really wants and starts working towards that, will be able to access therapies such as 3BP, Honokiol intravenous, or others.

I meant that we are in a better position vs clinics because what we need is:
- a medical trained person to help us to start 
- the knowledge how to apply 
- the knowledge on the sources
- the financial support to buy what is needed (much lower costs vs a clinic)

The knowledge is what we have here. The others are doable for most, if people really want it.
Financial aspects and access (at least initially) to a medical trained person could represent bottlenecks.

Clinics are limited by regulations. Patients can decide for themselves and go to a place where implementation can happen if they know what to ask for. And this is where Cancer Treatments Research community helps by making the information available. 

Fore example: lets assume there is another patient as in the article above responding to Honokiol but not being able to access again Honokiol at the clinic - we can helped him with information on: where to buy it, how to prepare it IV and examples of clinics in countries where they may be able to help with the implementation.

I hope this clarifies a bit more what was in my mind.

Kind regards,
Daniel

 


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 12:23 am  

D, yes, but why don't they? Wouldn't it make sense to actually have a low level antibiotic added to the IV? What I thought was that with the dextrose added with IV Honokiol, then this could be an ideal breeding ground for contamination if proper technique were not used. How is not microbially protecting IVs rational? BTW what is the purpose of the dextrose in the IV HK? Does including a sugar when treating a patient with cancer sensible (if it is not absolutely required?). Also unsure about the absolute requirement for the polysorbate 80.

 

This has been my experience as well, home care settings can often outcompete fully equipped hospitals. Logically that should not be true, though in actual practice that is what happens. Hospitals are equipped with highly skilled, highly educated, highly intelligent and highly paid professionals who typically spends years if not decades in higher education, yet ordinary citizens can and do find a way to overcome these odds. Of course, one of the almost unbeatable advantages is being removed from the dismal economics that emerge in institutionalized settings. It was particularly appalling to me when you noted that metronomic dosing at clinics has likely never caught on because patients would take up too much chair time. Setting up a 2 day 2-dg drip wouldn't be very profitable. When you understand the economics involved then you can simply have the IV done on a home care basis and sit in your chair as long as you like.

Honestly, I still find it difficult to believe that those outside of the mainstream medical establishment are  outcompeting conventional professionals in oncology (as we discuss on forum). Again logically that should not be true, though in practice that is what happening. Professional ethics means that you can only behave in a way that is consistent with the accepted procedures. However, accepted oncological procedures became standardized to treatments (such as chemotherapy) that are minimally effective and often harmful. It must be overwhelmingly frustrating to be locked into a system that is not adapting to the evolving scientific literature. The scientific research and clinical oncology communities have greatly diverged in their stated views on the metabolics in cancer.  

The medical ethics involved in denying patients with terminal stage patients true choice in their treatments are not in accordance with international human rights law. We saw this with Yvar. He had reached the edge of medical viability (e.g., he had a feeding tube, had a very large tumor burden, and was mobility restricted) and yet they continued to deny him 3-BP. This was against Sorafenib which realistically did not have much more to offer. It is exactly when people do try something different that breakthroughs to higher success becomes possible. 

The results at Chemothermia and elsewhere are now providing substantial evidence to support the claims that we have been making about metabolic medicine. Chemothermia's 42.9 months survival for stage IV lung cancer patients who were unselected sequential patients along with other consistent research is beginning to substantiate the metabolic perspective.

Probably one of the big factors working against the professional environment is simple indifference. You can see people showing up for work all the time who have little if no interest in meaningfully contributing beyond their mere presence. Your comment about how at a 3-BP (?) clinic they were entirely uninterested in maintaining the solution in a photostable state continues to lurk in the back files of my mind. With 3-BP you really need people who ARE interested in their job. 3-BP is not something where you can just punch a clock. You need to be paying attention.


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Daniel
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28/06/2020 2:09 am  

@jcancom

A lot of very good points and observations J.

Of course we always have to have an eye on the private clinics as well, since they often present selected cases. That reminds me of a friend who spend more than a million USD at clinics around the world. He had a large team of doctors and all were presenting his success as their success.

But in general is clear that medical system is like a factory. Specifically in western countries where efficiency and minimising costs is more important than the patient itself. Instead of minimising costs by reducing the costs related to the system and the drugs, they minimise the costs related to the patients. (that reminds me that in the Netherlands each medical doctor has a salary similar to a Vice President in a multi national, as soon as he receives a permanent position). This is because each part of the system (pharma industry, insurance companies, hospitals) are well organised and have strong representatives. That is not the case for patients. This is why, when it comes to advance cancer and other more complex diseases, its not difficult to do better at home compared to what the medical system is doing in the hospital.

This is now the reality and unfortunately we speak based on facts from the experience of many of us.

I actually never spent the time to look in to how patients are represented wen taking decisions related to the medical system. Have you ever looked in to that? Of course that will depend on the country but its still interesting to know who that is addressed in any country.


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 2:22 am  

D, I am interested about the idea of adding (homopathic ?) levels of antibiotics to IVs. This does make sense to me. It does not seem reasonable that all sorts of effort can go into sterilizing everything at the GMP plant only to have careless end user contamination.


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johan
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28/06/2020 2:40 am  
Posted by: @daniel

Fore example: lets assume there is another patient as in the article above responding to Honokiol but not being able to access again Honokiol at the clinic - we can helped him with information on: where to buy it, how to prepare it IV and examples of clinics in countries where they may be able to help with the implementation.

 

No doubt it's very helpful. Incredible that such a situation occured.

I'm surprised there isn't a liposomal HK on the market, or is there? Or better yet, Mito HK. It's seems like such a great ally in the fight against cancer.

 


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johan
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28/06/2020 3:09 am  
Posted by: @jcancom

D, I am interested about the idea of adding (homopathic ?)

That's an interesting idea J 😋 


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 4:02 am  

D, this conversation about IV honokiol has been quite productive. On your treatment page you list honokiol as the number 1 kill treatment for cancer. We have seen that it is powerful. To an outsider or someone with no understanding this would seem surprising. I admit I can think of a time that I would have had shameful laughter (schadenfreude) if someone tried to convince me that flowers could be a powerful cancer therapy. You live, you learn. Yeah, Magnolias.

Would you consider providing access to IV honokiol through your store? There are likely a fair number of people who would be quite interested in this product and finding a supplier might not be easy.The person in the article was unable to find a supplier and that cost him his life. Very startling. People can often become so controlled by the system, even while the system itself only continues to exist conditional upon its moral accountability. Providing people in need the tools that they need to treat their cancer could be another guiding principle of your company.   

While there can be temperature, transport issues etc., yet it seems as though this would be doable and would offer customers considerable value. You could investigate whether the formulation they used was truly the best. I am not sure about all that polysorbate 80; an article I read questioned its safety.  


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 4:03 am  

Johan, I will borrow an "e" from D's "Fore example" and I am all set. 


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johan
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28/06/2020 4:19 am  
Posted by: @jcancom

Johan, I will borrow an "e" from D's "Fore example" and I am all set. 

You made me laugh out loud twice now today 😀  And your writings and thoughts have been extremely profound, inspiring, and helpful.


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 6:11 am  

This is exciting!

D would IV magnolol be doable?

 

 

 

First one below is magnolol.

 

Magnolol.png

 

This one is honokiol.

They are isomers of each other.

 

Honokiol.png

 

Could you just go to a compounding pharmacy and say "Might you compound

some IV magnolol, please?"? This is  exactly what was done with the IV honokiol.

Why might one want to do such a thing?

 

Please examine the figure below top series right hand side.

Three rows: First mono honokiol

                  Second: mono magnolol

                  Third:    combination honokiol magnolol

                  (all dosed 20/mg/Kg IP daily) 

What is of course massively noticeable is that combo hono-mag

nearly prevents growth of the brain tumor.

That appears to be a very powerful synergy.

20 mg/Kg in mice (IP) gives ~1.5 mg/Kg in people  == ~150 mg in a 100 Kg person (IP?).

In the article they were already dosing at 50 mg/Kg IV honokiol!!!  ~~ 2.50 - 3.75 grams

More than 30 fold higher than the mouse experiment below (IP? vs IV)

I am very interested in what might happen if one were to combination dose honokiol-magnolol IV.

With the apparent synergy from the mice, it might be worthwhile to down dose. The article noted

that dosing at 50 mg/Kg IV had substantial effects in humans. 

 

 

 

 

Figure 8

 


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 5:15 pm  

Johan, I appreciate your positive reinforcement.You receive what you reinforce. More laughs and giggles to follow.


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johan
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28/06/2020 7:05 pm  

@jcancom

sounds good!

I look forward to D's thoughts on your posts on HK and ML. A few days ago he mentioned he was preparing an article on HK in combination with omega 3. 


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johan
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28/06/2020 7:20 pm  

I noticed there was already a review for D's HK product. The buyer mentions its a "Rare product". That's very true, and it's good to see people are already finding their way to this quality product.

https://www.mcsformulas.com/vitamins-supplements/pure-honokiol/

 


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 7:33 pm  

Johan, I am excited about Honokiol and Magnolol especially through an IV or perhaps other route of administration (sub-lingual). A new separation process that has emerged allows for high purity HK and MAG using a simple, cheap, and fast process. A single pass of this technology yielded 99.9% pure magnolol. That is astounding! I wish that we will be able to convince D to offer this product at his store.

You have noted elsewhere that there is a liposomal formulation of HK that includes betulinic acid, HK etc.. developed with research in lung cancer. Does anyone know of a commercial liposomal product for HK? Of interest is that polysorbate 80 which was used for the recently published patients report can be toxic. Using a liposomal formulation removes the need for polysorbate 80.

I am quite new to the specifics of IV formulation. It would be appreciated if anyone might include some basic comments about IV. For example, the role of ethyl alcohol? Seems odd to include alcohol.

Perhaps we should move this topic to a new thread as there appears to be a great deal to discuss.

 

 


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Manuone
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28/06/2020 9:43 pm  

If a human administration is found as a reference it could be formulated! 🙂


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Jcancom
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28/06/2020 10:11 pm  

@Manuone, please elaborate on your comment. My universal translator is currently offline.


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Manuone
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28/06/2020 11:08 pm  

hahahaha J was having a beer and that and my limited English complicate things!
I wanted to say that if iv administration of magnolol has been used in humans we can copy the formulation. If we already have previous data on humans, everything is easier.
It is possible that a solution of magnolol in ethanol filtered through a 0.22 particulate srynge filter can be used


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Daniel
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29/06/2020 12:10 am  

@manuone Cheers! 🙂 🍻 

It should be relatively easy if we use Kolliphor or similar substances to maintain the solubility of the plant extracts in water. I checked today Honokiol and is very nicely solved in ethanol but it precipitates when added to intravenous solution - so Honokiol and similar (not water soluble extracts) require extra help. But in principle we can formulate them all. The only question, always, is what are the side effects when someone would start using it. This is why having a reference on toxicity in humans at a given dose is extremely important. Now we have one on Honokiol which is great!

Kind regards,

Daniel


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Daniel
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29/06/2020 12:17 am  
Posted by: @jcancom

Johan, I am excited about Honokiol and Magnolol especially through an IV or perhaps other route of administration (sub-lingual). A new separation process that has emerged allows for high purity HK and MAG using a simple, cheap, and fast process. A single pass of this technology yielded 99.9% pure magnolol. That is astounding! I wish that we will be able to convince D to offer this product at his store.

You have noted elsewhere that there is a liposomal formulation of HK that includes betulinic acid, HK etc.. developed with research in lung cancer. Does anyone know of a commercial liposomal product for HK? Of interest is that polysorbate 80 which was used for the recently published patients report can be toxic. Using a liposomal formulation removes the need for polysorbate 80.

I am quite new to the specifics of IV formulation. It would be appreciated if anyone might include some basic comments about IV. For example, the role of ethyl alcohol? Seems odd to include alcohol.

Perhaps we should move this topic to a new thread as there appears to be a great deal to discuss.

 

 

Hi J,

99.9% purity would be extremely expensive and nobody would buy it. There is not much added value to move from 98% to 99.9% for oral use.

Whenever we change something that flows naturally there is a high chance not to flow anymore - that could happen with moving a discussion elsewhere. I stopped trying to do that many years ago. But you can try that and see, maybe it works. 

Ethanol is important to solve Honokiol. After that you use polysorbate 80 or others to make it suitable to be mixed with water without precipitation. This is what they do with Taxol as well but they use castor oil. Also toxic. There are other ways to achieve the same such as polyvinylpirilidone or beta ciclodextrine or others.

Kind regards,
Daniel


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Daniel
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29/06/2020 12:23 am  

@jcancom We could start with Salinomycin 😀 which is an antibiotic 


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Jcancom
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29/06/2020 12:25 am  

Or 3-BP!!!!


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Daniel
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29/06/2020 1:22 am  

@jcancom Or Vitamin C 😀


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Jcancom
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29/06/2020 1:24 am  

Silver?


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