@j thank you so much Johan. I really can’t tell you how much you’ve helped me.
Would you take any Vitamin A at all?
Can you remind me why you don’t like Resveratrol, Genistein, Pterostilbene, assuming it is all for the same reason?
What is the minimum effective curcumin dose in your opinion?
I think you can get plenty of vitamin A from your diet and if you take cod liver oil you get the DHA with vitamins D and A.
About Resveratrol, Pterostilbene, Genistein, I think there's too much risk, because of hormone-like properties and biphasic effects, not very convinced about their anticancer properties either. I've gone back and forward and eventually decided against.
@j also, FYI, she might not end up getting IVC at all. We want to see how things are going. She has a PET scan on Thursday. I’m praying for an awesome result. Trusting God with whatever happens, good or bad… because no matter what, He is good!
Sounds good!
What is the minimum effective curcumin dose in your opinion?
4grams
What is the minimum effective curcumin dose in your opinion?
4grams
That said, and in the case of your mother's ras-driven lung cancer, I'd be cautious with curcumin.
If we look at this study treatment with dietary BHA (2000 ppm), curcumin (2000 ppm) or resveratrol (500 ppm) from 1 week after carcinogen treatment until termination had no effect on lung tumor multiplicity. Treatment with dietary myo-inositol (30,000 ppm) or esculetin (2000 ppm) from 1 week after carcinogen treatment until termination significantly reduced lung tumor multiplicity, with the effect of myo-inositol being significantly greater than that of esculetin.
So NO benefit with the dietary CURC.
And in this study they found curcumin actually promoted cancer, Treatment of DOX-induced mice with dietary curcumin increased tumor multiplicity.
Lung tissue from DOX/curcumin-treated mice demonstrated a significant increase (33%; P = 0.01) in oxidative damage, as assessed by the levels of carbonyl protein formation, relative to DOX-treated control mice after 1 week on the curcumin diet. These results suggest that curcumin may exhibit organ-specific effects to enhance reactive oxygen species formation in the damaged lung epithelium of smokers and ex-smokers. Ongoing clinical trials thus may need to exclude smokers and ex-smokers in chemopreventive trials of curcumin.
@j aren’t there a lot more studies that show that it does help? Also with the second study, isn’t that more specific to concurrent treatment with DOX? I can see cutting out resveratrol, but curcumin in my mind is one of the big hitters. I suppose it’s all about combinations. That’s why the C makes me nervous - about what it is doing in combination. Ugh. It would be nice if we didn’t have to figure this out ourselves. But on we march…
@j aren’t there a lot more studies that show that it does help? Also with the second study, isn’t that more specific to concurrent treatment with DOX? I can see cutting out resveratrol, but curcumin in my mind is one of the big hitters. I suppose it’s all about combinations. That’s why the C makes me nervous - about what it is doing in combination. Ugh. It would be nice if we didn’t have to figure this out ourselves. But on we march…
oh yes, plenty of studies in favor of curcumin but in the type of cancer you are dealing with and since it is ras driven there might not be a benefit and it could make things worse. Was your mother a smoker?
here's more on inositol in lung cancer treatment
in this study, 1gr/kg/day was used (mouse model), and the curcumin-treated group showed a significantly reduced number of colonized tumor nodules in the lungs compared with the mock control group. Dose conversion to a 60kg human 4864.86 mg per day, approx 5grams.
@j she smoked from about 15 to 35. She quit 35 years ago. She also happened to work in a plant making heart catheters for many years. They apparently had a chemical spill at one point that no one found for a long time, big it was in the vents and they were breathing it. So double whammy.
Also with the second study, isn’t that more specific to concurrent treatment with DOX?
these were doxycycline-induced (tetracycline antibiotic) mice, and they compared sulindac and curcumin to butylated hydroxytoluene, which is a long tumor promoter. Treatment with dietary curcumin increased tumor multiplicity and progression to later stage lesions, results which were similar to animals that were co-treated with butylated hydroxytoluene. In comparison, sulindac inhibited the progression of lung lesions and reduced inflammation.
This is our current plan. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Inhibit Fermentation
- Loratadine (10mg)
Inhibit Angiogenesis, Autophagy (short term only)
- Loratadine
This addition is from Jane M's protocol.
Have you seen this study:
Loratidine significantly (P < .001) promoted the growth of both melanoma and fibrosarcoma, hydroxyzine significantly (P < .001) promoted the growth of melanoma, while doxylamine and cetirizine did not promote the growth of either tumor.
Canadian researchers concluded Loratidine can promote cancer growth in laboratory mice, even at low doses.
@j Hi Johan,
Thank you for sharing this.
In general, Loratadine never stood out a lot in my research as Fermentation inhibitor. This is why here it is not highlighted with Bold https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/drugs-and-supplements-that-block-fermentation-and-help-fight-cancer/
Also, in science we need to look at clouds of information, as discussed before, in order to identify what is closer to the truth. In my academic life, I saw so many scientists just pointing the opposite direction vs what majority thought, often because that brought (temporary) the spotlight on them.
So its difficult to conclude at this point, but it clearly represents a "data point" to keep in mind and see as we move forward if a cluster of similar info with emerge around this subject. If not, I will consider it as noise.
Btw, Johan, I saw earlier the nice words u mentioned regarding MCS Formulas, and I would like to very much thank you for that. Personally, I do not discuss MCS Formulas supplements here in the context of treatment discussions due to my personal bias that will obviously be there, which will lead to a conflict of interest.
Again, thank for the article - very good to keep it in mind and see if there is more info on this line. In my view other repurposed drugs and supplements are anyway standing out more as glyco inhibitors and specifically as MCST4 inhibitors where Loratadine is positioned.
For example, out f all the plant extracts, Phlorezin and Phloretin are some of the most outstanding inhiitors of (at least part of) the glucose transporters. While quercetin seems to be the most one relevant in MCT1 and MCT4 inhibition, that make is also a relevant supplement in the fight against auto-immune reactions.
Kind regards,
Daniel
Btw, Johan, I saw earlier the nice words u mentioned regarding MCS Formulas, and I would like to very much thank you for that. Personally, I do not discuss MCS Formulas supplements here in the context of treatment discussions due to my personal bias that will obviously be there, which will lead to a conflict of interest.
You are doing a fantastic job with MCS formulas, keep it up!
This is our current plan. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Inhibit Fermentation
- Loratadine (10mg)
Inhibit Angiogenesis, Autophagy (short term only)
- Loratadine
This addition is from Jane M's protocol.
Have you seen this study:
Loratidine significantly (P < .001) promoted the growth of both melanoma and fibrosarcoma, hydroxyzine significantly (P < .001) promoted the growth of melanoma, while doxylamine and cetirizine did not promote the growth of either tumor.
Canadian researchers concluded Loratidine can promote cancer growth in laboratory mice, even at low doses.
Curcumin enhanced the oral bioavailability of loratadine in this study.
So that could either be good or bad.
@j Hi Johan,
Thank you for sharing this.
In general, Loratadine never stood out a lot in my research as Fermentation inhibitor. This is why here it is not highlighted with Bold https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/drugs-and-supplements-that-block-fermentation-and-help-fight-cancer/
Also, in science we need to look at clouds of information, as discussed before, in order to identify what is closer to the truth. In my academic life, I saw so many scientists just pointing the opposite direction vs what majority thought, often because that brought (temporary) the spotlight on them.
So its difficult to conclude at this point, but it clearly represents a "data point" to keep in mind and see as we move forward if a cluster of similar info with emerge around this subject. If not, I will consider it as noise.
I understand, but speaking of clouds, the above-mentioned study, to me, is a very dark cloud in light of the very limited and may I say weak evidence in favor of the use of Loratadine in cancer treatment.
You need to have at least a few experimental studies, in Vivo, and there seem to be little or no experiments in mice other than the one I mentioned?
@j I understand Johan, but putting our own interpretation of the magnitude of one publication aside, this is just a data point that may or may not be true, depending on so many variables, such as experimental conditions, choices of the scientists regarding the experiments, and many other things.
Unless this is reproduced in other experiments by other scientists, it remains something to be aware of but not disrupting the core evidence regarding the potential benefit of this drug.
It's not my favorite, but just looking objectively and balanced at the data we have so far.
You know that you can find negative results about virtually all drugs and supplements in this world if you search deep enough. So let's keep this data in mind for now and not conclude, I would suggest.
@j would the vitamin C cause high gassiness but no loose stools (the opposite actually)? It’s been just a couple of weeks on the Berberine and she didn’t tell me about any gassiness at first but now says she has had some since the beginning; although it seems to have gotten worse with the C. I had her move the Berberine from before meals to with meals but the gassiness persists and has gotten worse. The stools are not loose but harder the last week. Cancer is one big game (not fun) of whack-a-mole.
https://cancer.sanger.ac.uk/cosmic/mutation/overview?id=99218509
@jcancom I’m not sure how to use the information in this link. Can you tell me how you would use it?
https://cancer.sanger.ac.uk/cosmic/mutation/overview?id=99218509
@jcancom I’m not sure how to use the information in this link. Can you tell me how you would use it?
@jcancom oh I see it’s the articles, I had been trying to do something with the pathways. Over-thinking as usual. Miss the forest for the trees. Thanks for the link, I’ll look and see if any of the articles jump out at me.
@j would the vitamin C cause high gassiness but no loose stools (the opposite actually)? It’s been just a couple of weeks on the Berberine and she didn’t tell me about any gassiness at first but now says she has had some since the beginning; although it seems to have gotten worse with the C. I had her move the Berberine from before meals to with meals but the gassiness persists and has gotten worse. The stools are not loose but harder the last week. Cancer is one big game (not fun) of whack-a-mole.
I wouldn't worry unless she really experiences too much discomfort. Her microbiome is changing and so this type of symptom is to be expected. You could try adjusting the dosage of the supplement you think is causing the gassiness, sometimes you just need to slow down. But as with beans, if you just continue eating them the gassiness disappears eventually.
@j would the vitamin C cause high gassiness but no loose stools (the opposite actually)? It’s been just a couple of weeks on the Berberine and she didn’t tell me about any gassiness at first but now says she has had some since the beginning; although it seems to have gotten worse with the C. I had her move the Berberine from before meals to with meals but the gassiness persists and has gotten worse. The stools are not loose but harder the last week. Cancer is one big game (not fun) of whack-a-mole.
I wouldn't worry unless she really experiences too much discomfort. Her microbiome is changing and so this type of symptom is to be expected. You could try adjusting the dosage of the supplement you think is causing the gassiness, sometimes you just need to slow down. But as with beans, if you just continue eating them the gassiness disappears eventually.
@j thank you - I think I did read somewhere that the gas from a new supplement usually doesn’t last more than 4 weeks, but I can’t find it now. It’s just not super fun for her right now. The constipation (as I do associate that with harder stool) probably has me more concerned. One thing I’ve learned about cancer is the importance of gut health and regular, daily, good bowel movements. Not a lot of fun to talk about, but super important to work toward this especially for cancer patients. And probably more so even for cancer patients who have recently had chemo.
totally agree keep an eye on it. Does she drink coffee? Senna can also be useful. There are many options to deal with constipation. I'd reduce the things you think is causing it
@j do you know anything about Nattozimes and Serrazimes? I’m about to purchase those for the first time. She is taking the bromelain (500mg 2x) and the supplement with the InflammENZ propriety formula as one of its ingredients. I think I may replace the InflammENZ -containing supplement with the Nattozimes and Serrazimes supplement. I saw that Daniel recommended Nattokinase, which is related to the Nattozimes though I’m not exactly sure how or if the recommended dosage (2000fu 2x) would be the same. One capsule has 4516fu of Nattokinase, so I guess I would stick with one as that is on the label, although she currently takes enzymes twice a day. Do you have enzymes that you like? I get so confused between Wobenzym, Serrapeptase, Nattokinase, Serrazimes and Nattozimes, InflammENZ, other pancreatic/proteolytic enzymes, and even taking one or more of these along with Bromelain. I need a cancer enzyme supplement 101 course, lol.
@j do you know anything about Nattozimes and Serrazimes? I’m about to purchase those for the first time. She is taking the bromelain (500mg 2x) and the supplement with the InflammENZ propriety formula as one of its ingredients. I think I may replace the InflammENZ -containing supplement with the Nattozimes and Serrazimes supplement. I saw that Daniel recommended Nattokinase, which is related to the Nattozimes though I’m not exactly sure how or if the recommended dosage (2000fu 2x) would be the same. One capsule has 4516fu of Nattokinase, so I guess I would stick with one as that is on the label, although she currently takes enzymes twice a day. Do you have enzymes that you like? I get so confused between Wobenzym, Serrapeptase, Nattokinase, Serrazimes and Nattozimes, InflammENZ, other pancreatic/proteolytic enzymes, and even taking one or more of these along with Bromelain. I need a cancer enzyme supplement 101 course, lol.
I abandoned the idea of treating cancer with enzymes, it just seems you have to take so much to get any result. That said, using some in-between meals or just making sure you get enough with meals seems a good idea to me. For that purpose, I stick with pineapple and papaya, either the fruit or as a supplement or both.
this study showed substantial benefit, I don't know which preparation they used and how many, but the results are quite impressive.
@j do you know anything about Nattozimes and Serrazimes? I’m about to purchase those for the first time. She is taking the bromelain (500mg 2x) and the supplement with the InflammENZ propriety formula as one of its ingredients. I think I may replace the InflammENZ -containing supplement with the Nattozimes and Serrazimes supplement. I saw that Daniel recommended Nattokinase, which is related to the Nattozimes though I’m not exactly sure how or if the recommended dosage (2000fu 2x) would be the same. One capsule has 4516fu of Nattokinase, so I guess I would stick with one as that is on the label, although she currently takes enzymes twice a day. Do you have enzymes that you like? I get so confused between Wobenzym, Serrapeptase, Nattokinase, Serrazimes and Nattozimes, InflammENZ, other pancreatic/proteolytic enzymes, and even taking one or more of these along with Bromelain. I need a cancer enzyme supplement 101 course, lol.
I abandoned the idea of treating cancer with enzymes, it just seems you have to take so much to get any result. That said, using some in-between meals or just making sure you get enough with meals seems a good idea to me. For that purpose, I stick with pineapple and papaya, either the fruit or as a supplement or both.
@j I’m not trying to heal cancer with the enzymes. I want to support a healthy gut microbiome; also, to clear out the extra-cellular debris after cancer cell death - at least that is my rough understanding of how enzymes might help with the lymphatic system and to avoid metastases.
@j A lot of people on the Tippens page use Serrapeptase to clear extra-cellular debris religiously. Jane’s page, not so much. I can’t think off hand of an enzyme that they use. Maybe more of the pro-resolving mediators. Daniel mentioned Nattokinase once on the site, on the Treatments page, and I haven’t seen much beyond that. It could be there, but I haven’t seen it.
@abidingtoday definitely not a bad idea, and the study I posted above clearly shows it can be very useful. I remember reading that compliance with this type of therapy is a serious issue, I forget the name of the person who made this therapy quite popular, Gonzales I think. I just think there are better options nowadays. That said I would definitely make use of enzymes, I mention it on my blog on the diet page.
@j A lot of people on the Tippens page use Serrapeptase to clear extra-cellular debris religiously. Jane’s page, not so much. I can’t think off hand of an enzyme that they use. Maybe more of the pro-resolving mediators. Daniel mentioned Nattokinase once on the site, on the Treatments page, and I haven’t seen much beyond that. It could be there, but I haven’t seen it.
Anything either Joe or Jane recommend I couldn't care less. They are charlatans.
This is our current plan. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Reduce Parasites and Inhibit Fast Cell Division
- Mebendazole (or similar antiparasitic)
Reduce Inflammation and Inhibit Metastases
- Mebendazole (or similar antiparasitic)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-88433-y
Eleven patients were included in the study and 10 started the treatment phase. Two patients stopped treatment prior to and the remaining eight after tumour evaluation by CT-scan at 8 weeks, all due to progressive disease. Four patients also fulfilled criteria suggested for hyperprogression.
What will it take to wake up and smell the coffee?
