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IVC and (or?) Ferroptosis when Immunotherapy only

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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j b12 is supposed to be supplemented when using Metformin, so I’m kind of at a loss as to what to do. 


   
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(@jcancom)
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 625
 

Abiding, this looks very encouraging. You mentioned the G12D mutation, apparently this can enhance 3-BP response when treated with Prima-1 (Prima1 is in later stage clinical development). Prima + 3-BP synergize through ROS. Notice below that 3-BP by itself was not all that helpful with KRAS G12D. Yet, when PRIMA-1 was added there was a large effect. 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27863474/


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@jcancom that KRAS link pretty cool, although I’m not exactly sure what to do with it…


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j how does one obtain citric acid proper?

Hi,

https://www.bulksupplements.com/products/citric-acid-crystalized-powder


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@jcancom I’m working on presenting my strategy… you’ll see that I don’t include too many pharmaceuticals. I do have a doctor who will prescribe some but only within certain limits. I do include what I consider to be the heavy hitters (where the doctor agrees), and I have a heavy focus on the natural supplements. If mom is able to reach NED, I think this will also make ratcheting things down easier. I also think it’s overall better for the body. I could try to get her more pharmaceuticals, but she is 69 and her body can only handle so much. 


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j b12 is supposed to be supplemented when using Metformin, so I’m kind of at a loss as to what to do. 

yesterday Tomaz26 made some interesting observations including metformin, in the main forum. you might want to check on that.


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j  citric acid would probably be taken in higher doses throughout the day, correct? How would this fit in with oral vitamin C throughout the day? I am thinking more strategy wise here as well. As I’m writing up my strategy document, I’m a little confused as to where the oral C throughout the day fits in, as seen through the lens of the strategies Daniel has outlined. Would you count that as a pro-oxidant strategy? Also, does a pro-oxidant strategy complement the metabolic inhibitor “Shut Down Energy Engines - inhibit fermentation and respiration” strategy? This is my primary strategy so far. I just need to understand C in the context of what I am trying to do. I think high-dose citric acid does fit in that strategy, I’m just now sure exactly how much and how often it would be administered. But I’m trying to see the whole picture…. I’m sold on the efficacy of the oral C, I’m just not sure how to view it in context of strategy.


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j  citric acid would probably be taken in higher doses throughout the day, correct? How would this fit in with oral vitamin C throughout the day? I am thinking more strategy wise here as well. As I’m writing up my strategy document, I’m a little confused as to where the oral C throughout the day fits in, as seen through the lens of the strategies Daniel has outlined. Would you count that as a pro-oxidant strategy? Also, does a pro-oxidant strategy complement the metabolic inhibitor “Shut Down Energy Engines - inhibit fermentation and respiration” strategy? This is my primary strategy so far. I just need to understand C in the context of what I am trying to do. I think high-dose citric acid does fit in that strategy, I’m just now sure exactly how much and how often it would be administered. But I’m trying to see the whole picture…. I’m sold on the efficacy of the oral C, I’m just not sure how to view it in context of strategy.

I have never looked at combining vitamin c with citric acid. Here is some information on their interactions

https://supp.ai/i/citric-acid-vitamin-c/C0055819-C2349136

Rather I think citric acid could be a useful alternative option.


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j honestly, I still like the metronomic oral C strategy on its own, but I’m questioning whether it will work against the metabolic strategy I have already implemented.


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j honestly, I still like the metronomic oral C strategy on its own, but I’m questioning whether it will work against the metabolic strategy I have already implemented.

@abidingtoday many already use vitamin c in such a strategy, although probably IVC mostly. I think the oral vitamin c  on its own will provide health and life extension benefits, as we have seen from the studies. The synergies I have noted are:

 

Vitamin C synergy

  • Vitamin K3  {study} (Apatone®, Anti-C Liposomal)
  • Vitamin K2 {ref}
  • Alpha-lipoic acid
  • Lysine, green tea extract, proline, arginine, N acetylcysteine🚩 {Ref}
  • Zinc, selenium, and quercetin 
  • Curcumin
  • Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)
  • Niacin (Vitamin B3)
  • Potassium {study}
  • Taurine
  • Juglone

   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j yes, I agree on the life and health extension benefits; and also see so many synergies. My confusion relates to the quantity and frequency of C being given and how that would affect the other strategies in place. Would it be complementary? Could it possibly work against?


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j for example, IVC is the pro-oxidant strategy and oral metronomic C may be a pro-oxidant approach (though I really am not sure it is???)… aren’t GLUT1 inhibitors best avoided with IVC? I have a ton of them in my everyday strategy.


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j for example, IVC is the pro-oxidant strategy and oral metronomic C may be a pro-oxidant approach (though I really am not sure it is???)… aren’t GLUT1 inhibitors best avoided with IVC? I have a ton of them in my everyday strategy.

Glut1 is used for vitamin c recycling so in theory there is an obvious conflict


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @j
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j for example, IVC is the pro-oxidant strategy and oral metronomic C may be a pro-oxidant approach (though I really am not sure it is???)… aren’t GLUT1 inhibitors best avoided with IVC? I have a ton of them in my everyday strategy.

Glut1 is used for vitamin c recycling so in theory there is an obvious conflict

but I'm really not the person to answer questions on these types of strategies as I haven't studied this enough. my approach, apart from dietary and lifestyle adjustments, is strictly based on likely synergies and my favorite combinations are posted on the homepage of my blog. 


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @j
Posted by: @j
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j for example, IVC is the pro-oxidant strategy and oral metronomic C may be a pro-oxidant approach (though I really am not sure it is???)… aren’t GLUT1 inhibitors best avoided with IVC? I have a ton of them in my everyday strategy.

Glut1 is used for vitamin c recycling so in theory there is an obvious conflict

but I'm really not the person to answer questions on these types of strategies as I haven't studied this enough. my approach, apart from dietary and lifestyle adjustments, is strictly based on likely synergies and my favorite combinations are posted on the homepage of my blog. 

reason I focus on synergies is that when I tried to reverse engineer why my fil's gbm disappeared I came to the conclusion that the likely explanation was the synergy behind the combination. 


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @j
Posted by: @j
Posted by: @j
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j for example, IVC is the pro-oxidant strategy and oral metronomic C may be a pro-oxidant approach (though I really am not sure it is???)… aren’t GLUT1 inhibitors best avoided with IVC? I have a ton of them in my everyday strategy.

Glut1 is used for vitamin c recycling so in theory there is an obvious conflict

but I'm really not the person to answer questions on these types of strategies as I haven't studied this enough. my approach, apart from dietary and lifestyle adjustments, is strictly based on likely synergies and my favorite combinations are posted on the homepage of my blog. 

reason I focus on synergies is that when I tried to reverse engineer why my fil's gbm disappeared I came to the conclusion that the likely explanation was the synergy behind the combination. 

in order to find good synergies, IMO you need to start with finding verifiable cancer success stories, long-term survivors, not just a couple of years. 

 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j This is why I am concerned that this metronomic oral C strategy (12g+/day) may not be the best. If it was verified, it was done so only a long time ago; and not alongside the use of GLUT1 inhibitors. I don’t mean to be so wishy washy, in favor one moment and opposed the next; but in light of my strategy and the many GLUT1 inhibitors that I use, I am just taking pause. I never see this strategy and even @daniel doesn’t seem to promote it or say what it is complementary to. It may be working in opposition to my main strategy of reducing fermentation and respiration. Do you agree that it might?


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j also, I still do not know what I am doing, so if I am talking crazy, just tell me so. I am still putting it all together and trying to understand.


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j This is why I am concerned that this metronomic oral C strategy (12g+/day) may not be the best. If it was verified, it was done so only a long time ago; and not alongside the use of GLUT1 inhibitors. I don’t mean to be so wishy washy, in favor one moment and opposed the next; but in light of my strategy and the many GLUT1 inhibitors that I use, I am just taking pause. I never see this strategy and even @daniel doesn’t seem to promote it or say what it is complementary to. It may be working in opposition to my main strategy of reducing fermentation and respiration. Do you agree that it might?

I don't exactly know everything you are using, I know you are using resveratrol which is a glut1 inhibitor and which anyway is a supplement I really don't like in cancer treatment as I said before. I totally agree that if you are choosing a certain strategy you should use the medications and or supplements that you are confident that they fit and avoid antagonistic effects.


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j also, I still do not know what I am doing, so if I am talking crazy, just tell me so. I am still putting it all together and trying to understand.

quite the opposite, I greatly appreciate your efforts to try and learn and get the best possible information. Your mother disserves nothing less. As mentioned above I am limited in my knowledge in regards to much of the metabolic strategies mentioned on this and other sites. After many years of reading a few hours every day, I continue to learn, so again, I appreciate your effort. 


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 

** deserves

 


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @j

The vitamin B group is a tough one, in cancer treatment.

Personally, I´d keep away from folate supplementation, b12 and b6.

On the other hand b1,b2, and b3 could be very useful.

here's a very interesting observation regarding ferroptosis

 


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 
Posted by: @j
Posted by: @j

The vitamin B group is a tough one, in cancer treatment.

Personally, I´d keep away from folate supplementation, b12 and b6.

On the other hand b1,b2, and b3 could be very useful.

here's a very interesting observation regarding ferroptosis

 

@abidingtoday 

 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j my B1 and B3 levels are *significantly* lower than that. On the other hand, I do think I am blocking Fatty Acid Oxidation already - at least weakly with some natural substances: mainly Citrus Bergamot; and I have heard possibly EVOO, tocotrienols, Tributyrin as FAO blockers.


   
johan and johan reacted
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j @jcancom @daniel

This is our current plan. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

 

Main Strategy: Shut Down Energy Engines

Inhibit Respiration

  • Metformin HCL (500mg)
  • Berberine (500mg 2x)
  • Honokiol (500mg 2x)

Inhibit Fermentation

  • Atorvastatin (10mg)
  • Omega 3 Fish Oil (1g 400mg EPA 400mg DHA 3x)
  • Quercetin (700mg 2x)
  • EGCG (400mg 2x)
  • Sulforaphane (15mg 2x)
  • Loratadine (10mg)
  • Resveratrol (225mg 2x)
  • Polydatin (100mg)
  • Pterostilbene (100mg)
  • Olive Leaf Extract (525mg 2x)
  • Tributyrin (300mg)
  • Mebendazole 100mg (or similar antiparasitic 222mg)
  • Curcumin (800mg 2x)
  • Genistein (250mg)
  • Silybinin (Milk Thistle) (150mg 3x)
  • Melatonin (20mg)
  • Ascorbic Acid powder in water (3mg 4x)
  • IVC (avoid GLUT1 inhibitors prior) (50-75mg 2x/week - not started)

 

Supporting Strategy: Nutrient Depletion

Inhibit Angiogenesis, Autophagy (short term only)

  • Hydroxychloroquine (200mg)
  • Oleocanthol (high quality extra virgin olive oil)
  • Loratadine
  • Tributyrin
  • Mebendazole (or similar antiparasitic)

 

Supporting Strategy: Inhibit Cellular Building Blocks

Inhibit Cholesterol Production and Storage

  • Garcinia HCA (500mg 2x)
  • Annato E Tocotrienols (300mg)
  • Citrus Bergamot (500mg)
  • Atorvastatin
  • Honokiol
  • Omega 3
  • Metformin
  • Berberine

 

Supporting Strategy: Acidify Cancer Cell

  • Omega 3
  • Quercetin
  • Atorvastatin
  • Metformin

 

Parallel Strategy: Address Treatment-Induced Issues

Low RBC, Hemoglobin, Hematocrit (bone marrow suppression) and High TSH

  • Grassfed Trachea (500mg 1-3x)
  • Grassfed Bone and Marrow (500mg 1-3x)

 

Parallel Strategy: Support Immunotherapy

Reduce Tumor Hypoxia

  • Metformin

Healthy Gut Microbiome

  • Prebiotic with XOS (2 @1g + 10 billion cfu)
  • Probiotic with Bifido Breve and Longum (50 billion cfu)
  • Akkermansia (400mg)
  • Pancreatic Enzymes - included in InflammENZ Proprietary Blend Proteases, Serratiopeptidase, Trypsin, Chymotrypsin (111mg 2x)
  • Tributyrin
  • Metformin
  • Omega 3

Decrease TAMs

  • 6-gingerol (5mg 2x)
  • Hydroxychloroquine
  • Silibinin (Milk Thistle)

Decrease TGF-B

  • Curcumin
  • Berberine
  • EGCG
  • Selenium
  • Silibinin (Milk Thistle)
  • Turkey Tail

Decrease REG Cells

  • Silibinin (Milk Thistle)
  • 6-gingerol

Decrease Inhibitory Cytokines

  • Atorvastatin

Increase Stimulatory Cytokines

  • Berberine

 

Pulsed Strategy: Pro-Oxidant Strategy

  • IVC (avoid GLUT1 inhibitors prior) (50-75mg 2x/week - not started)
  • Artemisinin + Artemisia Annua (125mg + 250mg) (day before, day of IVC only)
  • Piperlongum (500mg) (day before, day of IVC only)
  • Ursolic Acid + Caffeic Acid + Hesperidin    (100mg + 50mg + 50mg 2x) (day before, day of IVC only)
  • Metformin
  • Omega 3 DHA
  • EGCG
  • Atorvastatin

 

Alongside any Strategy:

Reduce Parasites and Inhibit Fast Cell Division

  • Mebendazole (or similar antiparasitic)
  • Atorvastatin
  • Metformin

Reduce Inflammation and Inhibit Metastases

  • Natto-Serrazime (Nattozimes® 129mg=4,516FU + Serrazimes® 33mg=20,000U 2x)
  • Specialized Pro-Resolving Mediators (300mg)
  • Mebendazole (or similar antiparasitic)
  • Atorvastatin
  • Metformin
  • Berberine
  • Omega 3
  • Olive Leaf Extract
  • Curcumin
  • Genistein

Support Organs and Immune System

  • Vitamin D (6000ui)
  • Bromelain (500mg 2x)
  • Omega 7 Sea Buckthorn Oil (1g)
  • Reishi (1g)
  • Turkey Tail (1g)
  • 5 Defenders (Chaga, Shiitake, Maitake, Turkey Tail, Reishi) (1g)
  • Vitamin A (1500mcg)
  • Annato E Tocotrienols (300mg)
  • Vitamin K (2500 mcg) (as Vitamin K1-Phytonadione 2000 mcg; Vitamin K2-Menaquinone-4 500 mcg)
  • B12 Methylcobalamin (2000mg)
  • Folate (680mcg)
  • B-Minus: Thiamin (25mg), Riboflavin (20mg), Niacin (50mg), B6 (20mg), Biotin (500mcg), Pantothenic Acid (150mg)
  • Trace Minerals: Iodine (250mcg), Zinc (30mg), Manganese (4mg), Chromium (200mcg), Molybdenum (250mcg), Potassium (99mg), Boron (500mcg), Vanadium (150mcg), Horsetail (100mcg)
  • Selenium (400mcg)
  • Magnesium Buffered Chelate (300mg)
  • Pancreatic enzymes
  • Omega 3
  • Probiotic
  • Silibinin (Milk Thistle)
  • Melatonin
  • Curcumin

 

Questions I have:

  • Does the metronomic medium-dose oral Vitamin C fit in with this strategy? Could it possibly work against the strategy or cause cancer growth?
  • What could/should be dropped or added, dosages/frequency changed? I’m especially conflicted about Genistein, Resveratrol and most of the vitamins.
  • Any thoughts on Natto-Serrazime, InflammENZ and if different things would be better?

   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

Ascorbic Acid in water should be 3g 4x


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

Also IVC is 50-75g 2x/week

I knew I’d get things wrong and not be able to fix it 🤦🏻‍♀️


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2160
 

@abidingtoday 

 

some observations...

- Taking Vitamin A above the Recommended Daily Allowance has been found to reduce the effects of vitamin D.
- Butyric acid dose too low. Butycaps has 900mg and I'd take at least 2 each day.
- I prefer to get omega 3 DHA from Carlson cod liver oil, in any case, make sure it's a high-quality fish oil
- EGCG a 400mg extract has approx. 200mg of epigallocatechin gallate (egcg), I´d prefer a higher dose may be 800mg.
- Resveratrol, Pterostilbene, Genistein. IMO a NO.
- B12 Methylcobalamin and Folate. IMO a NO.
- Riboflavin 50-100mg
- Curcumin is too low a dose.
- Consider Sanguinarine with piperlongumine
- Magnolol with Honokiol
- Consider Allimed® (Allicin) with Artemisinin


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j thank you so much Johan. I really can’t tell you how much you’ve helped me.

Would you take any Vitamin A at all?

Can you remind me why you don’t like Resveratrol, Genistein, Pterostilbene, assuming it is all for the same reason?

What is the minimum effective curcumin dose in your opinion? 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 129
Topic starter  

@j also, FYI, she might not end up getting IVC at all. We want to see how things are going. She has a PET scan on Thursday. I’m praying for an awesome result. Trusting God with whatever happens, good or bad… because no matter what, He is good!


   
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