Great podcast, I understood most, some was a little over my head. I was most encouraged by hearing that KRAS cancers may be particularly sensitive to the effects of Vitamin C. He said the most sensitive KRAS mutation is G12D - my mother has that mutation. So this was excellent news. If you’re going to have a nasty mutation, it’s a joy to hear that it may actually end up making one treatment that you are pursuing more effective in fighting your cancer.
The DHA that he talks about - is this the same DHA that is in the Omega 3 fish oil pills that most cancer patients take? I have been trying to figure out the best amounts and ratios of DHA and EPA for that supplement; she currently takes one that is 400mg DHA and 400mg EPA, three times a day. We have one sitting unused that is 500mg DHA and 100mg EPA. I wonder if she should switch, and what bearing, if any, this information will have upon that choice.
There are still many unknowns, as we all know; he mentioned the cancer stem cells and that C may increase or decrease them - that it is dose dependent. For me, this means that if we are to continue to pursue this strategy we need to do more research into proper dosing and administration times. Is the Cathcart approach the best approach? I don’t know. I do have a concern that we could help the immune system, and fight cancer in some ways, but also help cancer in other ways.
He also talked about quercetin which I found interesting because I recently read that quercetin may inhibit vitamin C uptake. I’m pretty sure that’s what I read at least. Right now, mom is taking Vitamin C throughout the day; she also takes quercetin (among several other supplements) multiple times a day - and is currently taking them with water that has vitamin C in it, so that she can get in all of the C, spaced in smaller doses but more often as one strategy to keep the levels up throughout the day. This information on quercetin makes me wonder if we should do MORE C per bottle, but in LESS bottles - spaced more strategically throughout the day so as to avoid competition with supplements like quercetin; this could also help to keep more to a planned, timed schedule with larger amounts of C coming in at once, though there would be less of them. This is something that I really need to figure out and I think it is important to get right.
There are so many unknowns and not so many people taking oral c and documenting it. The study he cited at the end actually said something to the effect of “if you do want to use Vitamin C as a therapeutic it has to be given intravenously.” I don’t know if he necessarily agreed with that, though he didn’t seem to strongly disagree. This was more of that possibly “conflicting information” that I talk so much about. Or at least information that causes me to feel conflicted. Things like this throw me off a bit.
Mom did have the g6pd test and is good to go with vitamin C treatment.
This was a great podcast. I am really glad I listened to it, thank you for sharing it with me Johan - and also for taking those great notes that I will add to my own!
@jcancom You said you hope your comments are helpful to me, and to that I just want to say Yes! Your comments are truly so helpful to me. I truly appreciate each comment you have made as they have helped me to learn and grasp these concepts on a deeper level.
I agree with you and Johan, and am not focusing too much on Vitamin C - it is only a part of a much larger plan which takes into account several of the strategies Daniel has laid out for fighting cancer. I think we started to look at IVC because she stopped chemo and has no more official “kill phases” as per the McLelland approach to cancer. As you can see from this thread, I started out only wanting to talk about IVC but have since opened up to medium-dose oral C - which aligns with Daniel’s antioxidant strategy. So while I am focused on C on this particular thread, I believe what she is doing apart from this could probably even stand on it’s own. The one concern I do still have is that she isn’t doing any big-gun traditional treatment, only Keytruda, which I don’t really like for her.
I very much appreciate your summary of what you have learned fighting cancer over the years. I think we are hitting several of these areas. Metabolics mostly; metronomics I am trying to understand and implement; combinations is something I have REALLY focused on. I have looked very closely at what supplements and drugs may be synergistic with others, and the choice of what to include as well as the administration schedule should hopefully reflect this. I hope I have done a good job.
Thank you again for helping me along on this journey!
The DHA that he talks about - is this the same DHA that is in the Omega 3 fish oil pills that most cancer patients take? I have been trying to figure out the best amounts and ratios of DHA and EPA for that supplement; she currently takes one that is 400mg DHA and 400mg EPA, three times a day. We have one sitting unused that is 500mg DHA and 100mg EPA. I wonder if she should switch, and what bearing, if any, this information will have upon that choice.
DHA or DHAA, or dehydroascorbic acid, the oxidized form of vitamin C. Not to be confused with DHA, the lipid Docosahexaenoic Acid. Here's a good video on vitamin C as dehydroascorbic acid :
There are so many unknowns and not so many people taking oral c and documenting it. The study he cited at the end actually said something to the effect of “if you do want to use Vitamin C as a therapeutic it has to be given intravenously.” I don’t know if he necessarily agreed with that, though he didn’t seem to strongly disagree. This was more of that possibly “conflicting information” that I talk so much about. Or at least information that causes me to feel conflicted. Things like this throw me off a bit.
Mom did have the g6pd test and is good to go with vitamin C treatment.
This was a great podcast. I am really glad I listened to it, thank you for sharing it with me Johan - and also for taking those great notes that I will add to my own!
Indeed Dr Nagourney references this study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30190680/ . In that study they write:
It wasn’t until the mid 1990s, when the seminal work by Mark Levine’s group highlighted the dramatic differences between the pharmacokinetics of oral and IVC, that the discrepancies between the original Cameron and Pauling studies and the Mayo Clinic RCTs were explained (Levine et al., 1996). While Cameron and Pauling (1976, 1978) had used IVC with subsequent oral maintenance, the Mayo Clinic RCTs comprised divided daily doses of oral vitamin C only (Creagan et al., 1979; Moertel et al., 1985).
But did that really explain the differences? IMO not.
I think the role of vitamin C could be similar to what we see with other compounds that
seem to be depleted in cancer patients such as certain peptides, iodine, and magnesium. One of the manytheories is cancer can arise as a consequence of nutritional deficiencies;
https://synergiesforcancertreatments.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-truth-about-cancer.html
@j Johan, I just followed your link and one thing jumped out at me right away, this:
Dr. Prudden’s 31 Cases: Treating Cancer with Bovine Tracheal Cartilage. "Dr. John F. Prudden (1920-1998), found that bovine tracheal cartilage had a powerful and consistently positive effect on wound healing, arthritis, cancer, and other diseases."
I have been researching ways to get mom’s consistently low red blood cells, hemoglobin, and hematocrit up. I believe these are low due to treatments she has received that has resulted in bone marrow suppression. Bovine tracheal cartilage has been recommended to me to help remedy this issue, and Prudden has been cited as a source. I have been hesitant to include animal protein in her treatment. But this supplement seems like it could address blood issues as well as be an overall good cancer fighter. “Cancer as a wound that does not heal” is a new strategy category to me. I wonder how this would fit in with all of the other things she is taking. Are there any things would be contra-indicated for bovine tracheal cartilage? Sorry for the detour, but I was very happy to see that on your blog page and would love to hear more of your thoughts on it.
But did that really explain the differences? IMO not.
@j Yes, I agree. Thank you.
Dr. Prudden’s study is remarkable, they're used to be a link on that page to the actual details of that study, for each patient, but that page had been discontinued. I will look for it later.
https://synergiesforcancertreatments.blogspot.com/p/bovine-tracheal-cartilage.html
I don't see anything that would stop me from using it if I was treating my own cancer.
@j that’s awesome. Thank you. Would you also use grass fed bone and marrow? That was also recommended to go along with the trachea. The supplements that I am looking at are hormone-free — I think hormones are the main reason (or one of them) that cancer patients are advised to avoid animal protein (red meats in particular)?
@j is there any free way to read this study online? If not, have you read it and would it be worth paying for in your opinion? I am trying to gather all of the important Pauling, Cameron, Cathcart studies and I am confusing myself.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0009279774900192?via%3Dihub
@j is there any free way to read this study online? If not, have you read it and would it be worth paying for in your opinion? I am trying to gather all of the important Pauling, Cameron, Cathcart studies and I am confusing myself.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0009279774900192?via%3Dihub
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0009279774900192
@j that’s awesome. Thank you. Would you also use grass fed bone and marrow? That was also recommended to go along with the trachea. The supplements that I am looking at are hormone-free — I think hormones are the main reason (or one of them) that cancer patients are advised to avoid animal protein (red meats in particular)?
A little animal protein is beneficial, necessary actually IMO. As long as the source is healthy, like grass-fed cows etc.
The First Time Design of Cancer Nutrition as Specific to Treatment with Its Mega Analysis, Potential, Benefits, and Drawbacks - Ugur Gogus
@j that’s awesome. Thank you. Would you also use grass fed bone and marrow? That was also recommended to go along with the trachea. The supplements that I am looking at are hormone-free — I think hormones are the main reason (or one of them) that cancer patients are advised to avoid animal protein (red meats in particular)?
A little animal protein is beneficial, necessary actually IMO. As long as the source is healthy, like grass-fed cows etc.
The First Time Design of Cancer Nutrition as Specific to Treatment with Its Mega Analysis, Potential, Benefits, and Drawbacks - Ugur Gogus
one of the dishes my fil would eat while he was receiving cancer treatments was fish head broth with some cooked veggies
@j thank you, I thought it important enough to purchase, so I did just now. I don’t know if I can quote on here something I purchased. It was worth it, in my opinion. Suggests that they did not think IVC was as important or effective as the ongoing oral administration. Also gave their administration of 2.5g after each or 4 meals daily (who eats 4 meals?). I wonder if the “after meals” part has any significance. I didn’t read the entire article closely yet, but in skimming I didn’t see that mentioned elsewhere as important. It seems odd that this paper is behind a paywall, it seems a pretty important one to me. Do you happen to have a list somewhere of all of the important papers as pertains to this topic? I can go back through the thread and find the ones mentioned in the posts, but if you happen to have a list that would also be helpful.
@j Suggests that they did not think IVC was as important or effective as the ongoing oral administration. Also gave their administration of 2.5g after each or 4 meals daily (who eats 4 meals?). I wonder if the “after meals” part has any significance.
I used to eat 4 meals, breakfast, lunch, at 4 PM right after school and then 7 PM. I think it was given after meals because vitamin c can cause gastrointestinal irritation.
Do you happen to have a list somewhere of all of the important papers as pertains to this topic? I can go back through the thread and find the ones mentioned in the posts, but if you happen to have a list that would also be helpful.
I don't but there are quite a few on my post on vitamin c
https://synergiesforcancertreatments.blogspot.com/p/vitamin-c.html
I have done a poor job at listing all the papers I looked at, have thousands of bookmarks, and just try to add to the blog as much as I can, but I often just forget.
@abidingtoday This could work https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0009279774900192
Also, some trials are discussed here (starting on page five) https://isom.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Vitamin-C-and-Cancer-Is-There-A-Use-For-Oral-Vitamin-C-28.1.pdf
He said the most sensitive KRAS mutation is G12D - my mother has that mutation. So this was excellent news. If you’re going to have a nasty mutation, it’s a joy to hear that it may actually end up making one treatment that you are pursuing more effective in fighting your cancer.
"Interestingly, citrate regressed Ras-driven lung tumors. "
@Abiding, I realize how overwhelming all of this can be, though it might be a good idea to start loading up the buggy. There are a large number of metabolic treatments mentioned on this site that you probably should at least consider purchasing. The list could include: DCA, methylglyoxal, hydrogen gas, fenbendazole, citrate, ... .
I think one of the mistakes that I have seen most frequently on the forum is that people never seem to get around to trying many of the potential treatments. Citrate seems like a good one to try out; there were apparently patient reports of large responses with citrate alone. Fenbendazole is another good one; it is a dog dewormer! It has powerful synergy with DCA. There are quite a few of these that would be worth considering to have on the shelf. The advantage here as well is that they have become the mainstream choice for those seeking alternatives to traditional cancer care; thus there is largish volume and so idea of safety. Methylglyoxal has a somewhat unique property of being able to selectively inhibit OXPHOS in cancer cells. ...
This could become quite complicated so I am glad that we have johan, D and friends to help us navigate the options.
Best Wishes, Jcancom
@j please excuse my ignorance, but I am not familiar with citrate; is that that another name for something related to vitamin C; or related to HCA Garcinia?
@j please excuse my ignorance, but I am not familiar with citrate; is that that another name for something related to vitamin C; or related to HCA Garcinia?
citrate or citric acid. not the same as vitamin c.
citric acid C6H8O7 and ascorbic acid C6H8O6.
about the cheapest supplement, one can buy.
@j please excuse my ignorance, but I am not familiar with citrate; is that that another name for something related to vitamin C; or related to HCA Garcinia?
"Citric acid is a weak acid that has been used as an antibacterial food preservative mainly due to its capacity to inhibit bacterial growth through its disruptive effect on cell membranes"
@jcancom yes, you are right, I have a friend with mom’s same illness that I am trying to help and I have noticed that she and her family are very stuck, and precious time is passing. Mom started off-label drugs and supplements back in December within two weeks of me learning of this new world. I knew we had to dive in and start with the basics (and we started with the best thing that you can do in my opinion) and then refine refine refine. I started working on a list of what we are doing, by strategy, to share here, but demands here have been high. I’ll see if I can get back to that as I would actually love a little feedback on it. Oddly enough, I find that I am a little stuck on the basic vitamins right now (the B12, folate, B complex, especially B6, vit A, E tocotrienols — I stopped the multi and am giving these all separately) and if I should even be giving her any of these things at all, and if so how much. I know I should take her to an integrative doctor for levels testing, but we see one and she’s not helpful, and I feel very alone as far as medical help and insight. You guys and a friend I met on FB who is NED (partly from your help on this site) have been my main help in this. Anyway, I digress… I do want to share more of what we have been doing. I am curious and just asked Johan after his comment and I see you have mentioned as well - is citrate the same as HCA garcinia, or related to vitamin C in some way? I probably should know but I don’t off-hand.
@j citric acid is not the same as hydroxycitric acid (HCA)? Mom does take 1000mg of that a day.
@j citric acid is not the same as hydroxycitric acid (HCA)? Mom does take 1000mg of that a day.
It"s not the same @abidingtoday, similar but does different things.
Oddly enough, I find that I am a little stuck on the basic vitamins right now (the B12, folate, B complex, especially B6, vit A, E tocotrienols — I stopped the multi and am giving these all separately) and if I should even be giving her any of these things at all, and if so how much. I know I should take her to an integrative doctor for levels testing, but we see one and she’s not helpful, and I feel very alone as far as medical help and insight.
The vitamin B group is a tough one, in cancer treatment.
Personally, I´d keep away from folate supplementation, b12 and b6.
On the other hand b1,b2, and b3 could be very useful.
especially B2 though.
