Necrosis and fatality is not the objective -- it a problem- though what it dramatically demonstrates is that a metabolic approach can be highly powerful. I am not sure though the cause of such metabolic collapse perhaps could be related to one exclusion for vitamin C treatment: G6PD deficiency.
The big lesson for me was that metabolics can be effective. What is interesting is that Dayspring clinic which is probably the world's top 3-BP clinic treats with 3-BP, ketogenic diet and vitamin c etc.. Vitamin C is a much more powerful treatment than I would have thought possible. What we have found through the years on this blog is that metronomic dosing can be very powerful. Metronomic 2-DG, methylglyoxal, vitamin C, hydrogen gas, ketogenic ... . If you can exert ongoing pressure against cancer for a prolonged period of time, then this can powerfully disrupt cancer. Many chemotherapy, radiation types treatments might have only a time limited cancer effect and then the patient often will need to take a vacation from treatment. Metabolic approaches which can be very well tolerated can allow for essentially ongoing treatment. At some point the cancer would need to just give up.
With respect to any given cancer treatment, I have become somewhat more ambivalent. I had thought that perhaps there would be THE CURE. The way I see it now is that there are many highly related cancer treatments that use a metabolic perspective. Often the same basic pathway is used over and over again by different treatments. One other idea that I have found impressive lately is how synergistic very similar treatments can be. For example, a combination as seemingly simple as 3-BP and citrate can apparently have strong synergistic effects. What happens is that 3-BP first strikes the glycolysis pathway and the citrate attacks it again from a different point. This dual glycolytic effect can powerfully affect cancer.
@jcancom thank you. Okay. Wow, how to process that... We have been taking the metabolic approach to this cancer, beyond vitamin C, with several supplements and some off-label meds. She has been improving so far. We only started this in December after a late September diagnosis and hospitalization. She has NSCLC (lung cancer) adenocarcinoma, KRAS mutation. How can I find if this is one of those cancers where a metabolic treatment can cause a near instant collapse? Is lung cancer one of these cancers? I really do need to find this out. I am playing with fire and should probably not do this. I understand that your post may be to encourage me, but I am also seeing that it may be to warn me, and I don’t think I’m smart enough about this to know the difference right now. I am a simple person who is probably in over my head. I’m well-educated, I learn fast, but I don’t think I can learn this fast enough to do it correctly.
@jcancom I posted my last comment in response to the comment before your last. We posted those at the same time. Just FYI.
Abiding, there are no easy answers for many of the problems that we have faced trying to help people. Typically, tumor collapse is not a big problem in cancer management. Generally, if such an event occurs, they will write it up in a medical journal as a rarity.
However, with metabolic approaches it does seem to have happened somewhat often. Pauling had a number of patients who developed necrosis, the first patient treated with 3-BP (the published liver patient) had a nearly fatal overresponse, the melanoma patient after receiving combination 3-BP and paracetamol also had a dramatic response which might also have been TLS, the patients in the German clinic who did not survive 3-BP also perhaps had TLS... It is a concern. Dayspring, though, has been treating with 3-BP for quite some time now with powerful metabolic approaches including 3-BP without incident.
https://chemothermia.com/publications/
Metabolic approaches with lung cancer have been especially favorable.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02656736.2019.1589584
@jcancom I guess what I am asking is - if you were in my situation, and could not use a metronomic pump, and didn’t have IVC even set up yet, would you be doing what I am doing, offering her the medium-dose oral Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) throughout the day? If you did so, would you be nervous that it might make her situation worse, or would you feel fairly confident that it would not? I know it’s a lot to ask you this question; it is not asking medical advice, just a hypothetical what would you do given the circumstances. At least if you know you would not do it, that would help immensely. A warning that I am treading where I perhaps should not.
Regarding the metabolic collapse idea: I would not try to overthink it. Most cancers are not fragile. Those cancers (that are like clear cell renal cancer, testicular etc.) often were then rapidly absorbed into mainstream medicine and declared a success for traditional medicine.
Metabolic cancer clinics appear to have learned that it is not the objective to instantly vaporize cancer. That is not what you want to do; that is dangerous. Cancer should be thought of more as a chronic illness that metabolic medicine can manage over the longer term. There is this view that it is necessary to completely eliminate cancer at all expense; this is not a good strategy. As long as you have strong metabolic backup, you can keep rotating through all the pathways of cancer. We do not have all the answers yet, though we have made considerable progress in moving towards these answers.
The problem that happens with traditional chemotherapy is while short-medium term containment is typically possible, as soon as the cancer escapes this containment the growth can then be exponential. Metabolics has the potential for maintaining the containment indefinitely.
With the German 3-BP patient, it appears that TLS (or something like it) caused his mortality. At the autopsy, no live cancer cells could be found, though his liver was overwhelmed trying to cope.
Abiding, I usually defer to D's best judgment on the skill testing questions.
However, you need to realize that in most instances tumor collapse will happen soon into treatment. That is what happened with the Pauling patients. They experienced tumor collapse within days of starting treatment. In your instance, the fact that it hasn't happened already is a good sign that it will not (within the range of stress that you are currently using).
Also the German clinic patients were overdosed many fold over the typical 3-BP dose. Probably with a treatment as powerful as 3-BP any patient could be induced into TLS with a high enough treatment, though as more as been learned it has been possible to use correct dosing to avoid the problem.
One other consideration is that with 3-BP there is an antidote: liposomal GSH (NAC). With metabolics one can reverse the treatment effect if needed. This is typically not true with other treatments.
@jcancom we are only two days into the vitamin C. Not very far yet. I have some praying to do tonight. Is there also something to reverse the vitamin C treatment if needed? And how would one being treated with C know when it was needed, before it was too late?
What you really should be trying for is a nice gradual long term in tumor markers. As the tumor mass decreases so too does the risk of TLS.
I have been waiting for a watch that can measure lactate levels continuously and non-invasively to reach the market. This might solve the problem of possible TLS. It would indicate at all times how much tumor activity was present.
What also needs to be remembered is that often the TLS patients seem to go days without treatment. It is very difficult to understand. With the patients in the 1970s there seemed to be almost no understanding how dangerous necrosis could be; the doctors did not appear to respond to this emergency in any way. Same with Bracht in 2016. The patients appeared to develop TLS within minutes of treatment and then for DAYS later no treatment was started! It is very difficult to imagine. All that was needed was some GSH or NAC. The problem could have been stopped right away.
I am sorry Abiding, I will not be much help on the question of TLS.
However, as I noted, for the patients treated with vitamin c who developed necrosis, the response was almost immediate. The tumors responded within hours with complete metabolic collapse. This is a highly unusual response. There have been many thousands of patients treated with the typical vitamin c protocol and this is almost unheard of.
One thing to keep in mind is that ongoing labs will detect problems that arise.
The chemothermia clinic's results with lung cancer have been quite impressive. They use the metabolically supported chemo approach along with ketogenic diet, hyperthermia, ... It is nice to have the proof that metabolics can be effective.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02656736.2019.1589584
Good night Abiding and Best Wishes, Jcancom
@jcancom when I started to see what I believe was some die-off in the lungs several days ago (before C) based on a couple days of lung pain, and then pain in the kidney area afterwards, I reached out within the online community and was recommended special pro-resolving mediators and also proteolytic enzymes. I had already ordered bromelain based on reading Daniel’s blog, and started to give that to her just around the same time as the C. Today she was able to take it without a burning sensation for the first time. She also just started a small dose of the special pro-resolving mediators. It seems that the pain has subsided — I am hoping that this was in fact some die-off and that the SPMs and the bromelain played some part in helping to manage the die-off. So I do see what you are saying about TKS not being typically an immediate thing where there would be no warning. In a case where there is die-off that appears to be a little more out of control, causing what might appear to be a herxheimer reaction (if I am correct?), I am taking from your comments that perhaps NAC might be helpful in putting the brakes on the reaction? If this is the case, I would be curious to know by which mechanism this takes place, and for how long (and ideally in what dosage range) the NAC would best be administered. Would it be stopped at the cessation of pain? I have avoided NAC thus far for cancer, but would gladly use it temporarily to stop a possibly deadly reaction.
@jcancom TLS, not TKS. I just read your previous two comments as I was busy typing my own when you posted. Thank you so much for the time you have spent patiently educating and explaining things to me tonight. I learned so much. It will really help me. I really appreciate your help so very, very much. Take care, and God bless.
@jcancom we are only two days into the vitamin C. Not very far yet. I have some praying to do tonight. Is there also something to reverse the vitamin C treatment if needed? And how would one being treated with C know when it was needed, before it was too late?
Vitamin C Pharmacokinetics: Implications for Oral and Intravenous Use:
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/0003-4819-140-7-200404060-00010
You're not going to get Tumor lysis syndrome because of 2 grams of oral vitamin C dissolved in water!
You might get diarrhea.
I have said it before and will say it again. VITC shouldn't be on top of your list, not even near. It has its place but only within the context of synergistic combinations and not during active conventional treatment, nor should it delay such treatment. I have given you links to research, I really recommend you to read it carefully.
It's hard for me to understand you are giving so many supplements to your mom yet you are still totally lost on this vitamin C issue. You also should discuss EVERYTHING with your mom's oncologist, or find a medical doctor that is willing to consider adjuvant options if your mom's oncologist isn't prepared to listen.
Good luck.
@j I read more late into the night last night, and have been reading all day. I know I was panicking a bit last night. Look, this is still so new to me. My mother’s oncologist has forbid the use of vitamin C. We live an an area with at least 5 world renowned National Cancer Institutes within driving distance. Probably more. And all the oncologists at all the NCI institutions say the same thing. Standard of care. No vitamin C. So mom’s oncologist will never be a help in this area. I have been looking for a new one, one who specializes in her cancer (or even who doesn’t, if they would take her) and who understands the metabolic approach to cancer. Even the integrative doctor we found, and who mom sees, doesn’t share your views on C. But - I do. I actually do. But I’m more like a baby learner in this area, where you are the adult. It is very scary because I don’t see anyone around me doing this, even on the most popular alternative off-label drugs and supplements Facebook groups. If they do anything besides IVC, it is liposomal C. So I had a moment last night. But I read more — reread everything you shared with me — and I am better today.
Also, mom isn’t taking conventional treatment right now, just Keytruda (and she might be done that). And she is taking 12g oral C. We might actually try Cathcart’s bowel tolerance method, but I want to see how this goes for a couple of days first. I know helping me requires a lot of patience, and you have really exhibited a great deal of it. I hope also that anyone who reads this forum and shares some of my concerns and struggles can learn and be encouraged by our long conversation : )
And all the oncologists at all the NCI institutions say the same thing. Standard of care. No vitamin C. So mom’s oncologist will never be a help in this area. I have been looking for a new one, one who specializes in her cancer (or even who doesn’t, if they would take her) and who understands the metabolic approach to cancer. Even the integrative doctor we found, and who mom sees, doesn’t share your views on C.
That integrative doctor wants to use IVC because it is very profitable. I have no personal view or interpretation of VITC. I just stick with the original research from Ewan and Linus, the only studies that have proven a clear life-extension benefit, in late-stage cancer patients.
You see, that's why I really have a problem with all those private clinics like the one @jcancom always mentions (jcancom should disclose his relationship IMHO), they push IVC so hard. It's just so profitable for them they have hijacked the research from a few great scientists and turned it into a profitable scheme for them.
Burzynski isn't using any vitamin C.
You are trapped in this notion of a metabolic approach to treat cancer. IF you really want to follow such a treatment option, then you should strictly follow people like Daniel, and not get your information from mostly anonymous people on FB.
Daniel is a Ph.D., has dedicated thousands of hours researching cancer with an emphasis on trying to get a grasp of the metabolic mechanisms involved. He has published scientific papers and is doing a trial with 2-Deoxy-D-glucose. Then why don't you follow his advice, he has it all here on the site.
@j I’m sorry, I also don’t have the language down yet. In my mind at that moment, all of this, including what Daniel is doing, including the C, I called the metabolic approach to cancer. What I meant to say is that it is difficult to find an oncologist who will consider ANYTHING other than SOC. Anything natural, anything off-label, anything alternative. I actually am starting to think it cancer more in line with Daniel’s approach to things than Jane’s. It inherently makes more sense to me. I am following his advice as closely as I can. I also follow a lot of people who are NED or being healed from cancer on the Facebook groups. I like to understand what they are doing. Jcancom didn’t push IVC to me, so no worries there. I appreciated the conversation we had. I was having a rough night anyway, so I did panic a little, but both he and you have provided me good info that I appreciate. It takes me a little while to process things sometimes. I have an engineering and computer programming background, so I can process information pretty well - but everything I process from one person - I have probably read 3 other things that say something else, or at least make things a little more confusing to me. I have only been doing this at all since December. Like, two months ago. So it just takes a while to sift through and figure out what is right and real. Is Burzynski alive? I heard of him, but I haven’t had a chance to look deeper. I want to learn more - from what I heard, it really sounded like he was onto something!
. Is Burzynski alive? I heard of him, but I haven’t had a chance to look deeper. I want to learn more - from what I heard, it really sounded like he was onto something!
You can find out about him on the case study page I made on my f-i-l's recovery from GBM, I already posted it twice, you should be able to find it in this thread.
Jcancom didn’t push IVC to me, so no worries there.
Yet he always mentions that clinic. And according to their website Intravenous Vitamin C is one of the big guns.
@j I had actually already gone back to your page before I saw this comment because I remembered that I had started to read the story when you were away on vacation but got distracted by one of my kids. That is an amazing story — and he is still with you! Great job. You were the one who told me about butyrate, on this forum (I’m pretty sure) and I found tributyrin - is phenylbuterate close to tributyrin - maybe tributyrin is more of an OTC version? I hope so because you sure do make a great case for it in your write-up. I had seen something about Burzynski on a random television channel at one point. You have actually worked with his treatment! That’s awesome. It’s criminal how good treatments are buried. But that’s a whole other topic. I’d love if something we had were similar to Burzynski’s treatment. How is your father is law doing?? You better have gotten the award for best son-in-law in the world, haha. My husband’s mother has been sick with Parkinson’s for 10 years and I haven’t been able to do much to help. They live 20 hours away, and my father-in-law has been really trusting of the doctors the whole time and not wanting to even look at anything outside of the box. Which I do understand. But I wish I could have helped. I can see how helping someone got you so invested into this. It’s really fascinating, and it’s so incredibly important. Thank you for using your knowledge and understanding to help me help my mother.
@j I had actually already gone back to your page before I saw this comment because I remembered that I had started to read the story when you were away on vacation but got distracted by one of my kids. That is an amazing story — and he is still with you! Great job. You were the one who told me about butyrate, on this forum (I’m pretty sure) and I found tributyrin - is phenylbuterate close to tributyrin - maybe tributyrin is more of an OTC version? I hope so because you sure do make a great case for it in your write-up. I had seen something about Burzynski on a random television channel at one point. You have actually worked with his treatment! That’s awesome. It’s criminal how good treatments are buried. But that’s a whole other topic. I’d love if something we had were similar to Burzynski’s treatment. How is your father is law doing?? You better have gotten the award for best son-in-law in the world, haha. My husband’s mother has been sick with Parkinson’s for 10 years and I haven’t been able to do much to help. They live 20 hours away, and my father-in-law has been really trusting of the doctors the whole time and not wanting to even look at anything outside of the box. Which I do understand. But I wish I could have helped. I can see how helping someone got you so invested into this. It’s really fascinating, and it’s so incredibly important. Thank you for using your knowledge and understanding to help me help my mother.
phenylbutyrate is butyrate with a benzene ring attached to it. But one has to look at the chemical reactions in the body and the metabolites. Meaning, taking phenylbutyrate isn't the same as taking sodium butyrate or tributyrin but they all seem to play an important role, directly or indirectly, in the ability of cells to repair errors in DNA.
How is your father is law doing??
He's now 70 and in very good health still.
I had seen something about Burzynski on a random television channel at one point.
Watch his latest video from just a few months ago, which I embedded in that blog post.
This couldn't be more timely, I just got an email from Robert A. Nagourney, MD (board-certified in internal medicine, medical oncology, and hematology) about his latest podcast...on Vitamin C 😀
Here's a link to that podcast, I'll listen to it shortly.
I just finished listening to Dr. Nagourney's podcast on Vitamin C. Don't miss the opportunity to listen
to this brilliant oncologist who generously shares his insight into this matter!
Here are a few notes I made:
-Two principal forms of Vitamin C: ascorbic acid, and dehydroascorbic acid. These are the reduced
and oxidized forms. The oxidized and reduced form seem to be transferred into the cell by different
mechanisms. Ascorbic acid is ascorbic acid, no matter where it comes from, it's exactly the same
ascorbic acid if it's found in fruit, or in a bottle at a drugstore.
-There certainly is a reason to believe that studies that are done on vitamin C may to some degree
be confounded by the fact that the source of the vitamin C and whatever it keeps company
with, like quercetin or flavonoids, this may influence the biological activity so that we may not
just be seeing vitamin C as it were, we may actually be seeing the effect of other biologically
active molecules.
If we look at the literature, it's a little equivocal. It's not entirely clear, at least not from
the blunt instrument of clinical trials and studies, whether vitamin C has a big impact on cancer
incidence.
IRON: Interestingly, the lower the iron, the higher the free radical activity associated with ascorbate.
So strangely, people who might be iron deficient, might be the ones who would have the greatest degree of free radical production in the presence of ascorbate.
RAS: The most interesting work is in a particular type of cancer. One of the most common gain of function mutations is called the RAS gene. Ras genes come in different forms , K RAS, H RAS, N RAs, but they're all more or less drivers of tumorigenesis. It turns out that this type of tumor may be particularly sensitive to the effects of vitamin C.
When I have patients who say they want vitamin C as a therapy, I'm much more willing to have them do that if they have a K RAS mutated tumor, I think there is a legitimate argument in favor of vitamin C in that setting.
SAFETY
And one thing that every patient who wants IV vitamin C must do is be sure they're not lacking an enzyme called G6PD (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase). In the absence of that enzyme, you could be very much at risk for IV vitamin C, because G6PD is essential for maintaining the oxidative state of vitamin C.
Abiding, I am so glad that we have johan on board to help you! He has a lot of insight into cancer and has great advice. There is so much to learn and it can feel so overwhelming (it is overwhelming; it is still overwhelming for me. The amount of cancer research to synthesize is almost infinite. It is frutstrating because the answer is out there all we need to do is find it.)
I think that johan is on the money when he mentions not to be too focused on vitamin c. That is my current perspective as well: Don't become too enthralled by any particular metabolic approach, there are a whole bunch that are fairly similar that could be rotated into. Some of those who have been the most successful on forum in managing cancer have appeared to treat with an entire pharmacy of metabolics. Even still vitamin c clearly is one treatment option.
I only mentioned Dayspring because they are the only clinic in the world that I am aware of that have had ongoing success treating with 3-BP. It is at least worthwhile to understand their treatment perspective. From what they have reported they use formulated 3-BP, along with ketogenic diet, vitamin C and others. I find it fairly interesting that those who have considerable therapeutic success (has judged from their online patient reports) consider vitamin c to be one of their top treatments.
Abiding here is a fast summary of what I have learned over a number of years of contemplating cancer:
1. Metabolics - Cancer is a metabolic disease. Think of the main energy and other pathways.
2. Metronomics- Duration over dose. Applying a prolonged force against cancer can have a powerful force. Treat with safe well tolerated treatments that can continue for hours/days.
3. Formulation- If possible try to get to a lab or find someone who knows their way around one. Formulating treatments liberates so much of their potential and it makes it safer. The 3-BP treatment that is about to enter a clinical trial is without doubt properly formulated.
4. Combination- Enhance efficacy and safety by combining often along related energy pathways. For example, when 3-BP was combined with paracetamol for the published 3-BP patient with melanoma there was a gigantic increase in clinical effect: the entire tumor shut-down after the second dose.
5. Tumor genetics-- We have not made much progress with this idea yet though it could be very powerful. If you were to full genome sequence tumor cells from a blood sample, then potentially you would have a blueprint that would disclose EVERY possible metabolic vulnerability of the cancer. This would have truly massive power. As it is now, we really do not know what treatment might help. It is mostly a question of trial and error. Metabolics are somewhat better because metabolic treatments (such as 3-BP can be effective within minutes -- perhaps this could also be seen in real time with FDG PET). With tumor genetics it could be possible to have a comprehensive list of all tumor mutants. For example, if you saw that MCT-1 was over-active you would know that 3-BP should be effective; if you saw that catalase activity was low, then vitamin C should be effective, etc. etc.. It is quite remarkable to think that with a full tumor genome scan you would know all the metabolic vulnerabilities. As the cancer evolved, you could take another blood sample and find another vulnerability. Eventually the cancer would have no options left.
This would clearly to be an extremely powerful strategy. The one problem is that the genome scan would generate many thousands and thousands of mutants. It would require a great deal of effort and understanding to make sense of it all. However, if you had a clear hit on the tumor cell (e.g., both copies of a secondary pathway were knocked out in the tumor cell but not in the normal body cells, then it would be like a free shot on goal. The tumor cells would be defenceless).
I hope my comments are helpful to you and I am glad that johan is here helping you. Best Wishes, Jcancom
Here are a few notes I made:
-Two principal forms of Vitamin C: ascorbic acid, and dehydroascorbic acid. These are the reduced
and oxidized forms. The oxidized and reduced form seem to be transferred into the cell by different
mechanisms. Ascorbic acid is ascorbic acid, no matter where it comes from, it's exactly the same
ascorbic acid if it's found in fruit, or in a bottle at a drugstore.-There certainly is a reason to believe that studies that are done on vitamin C may to some degree
be confounded by the fact that the source of the vitamin C and whatever it keeps company
with, like quercetin or flavonoids, this may influence the biological activity so that we may not
just be seeing vitamin C as it were, we may actually be seeing the effect of other biologically
active molecules.If we look at the literature, it's a little equivocal. It's not entirely clear, at least not from
the blunt instrument of clinical trials and studies, whether vitamin C has a big impact on cancer
incidence.IRON: Interestingly, the lower the iron, the higher the free radical activity associated with ascorbate.
So strangely, people who might be iron deficient, might be the ones who would have the greatest degree of free radical production in the presence of ascorbate.RAS: The most interesting work is in a particular type of cancer. One of the most common gain of function mutations is called the RAS gene. Ras genes come in different forms , K RAS, H RAS, N RAs, but they're all more or less drivers of tumorigenesis. It turns out that this type of tumor may be particularly sensitive to the effects of vitamin C.
When I have patients who say they want vitamin C as a therapy, I'm much more willing to have them do that if they have a K RAS mutated tumor, I think there is a legitimate argument in favor of vitamin C in that setting.
SAFETY
And one thing that every patient who wants IV vitamin C must do is be sure they're not lacking an enzyme called G6PD (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase). In the absence of that enzyme, you could be very much at risk for IV vitamin C, because G6PD is essential for maintaining the oxidative state of vitamin C.
Also, Ascorbic acid inhibits the antitumor activity of bortezomib, which is an important drug in the treatment of multiple myeloma.
