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IVC and (or?) Ferroptosis when Immunotherapy only

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(@abidingtoday)
Joined: 2 years ago
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Ugh, how come we can’t edit these things. Your D3 and the one I *found look basically the same.


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j I will read that story!

Yes, you should! Glioblastoma is very lethal https://synergiesforcancertreatments.blogspot.com/2018/06/cancer-types-with-poor-survival-rates.html

If anything, look for synergies with conventional therapy. Pick and chose winners! 

I am leaving for the beach tomorrow and have to iron my shorts!

Bye for now

 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@j thank you for all your help, hope you have a great vacation!


   
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(@manuone)
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AbidingToday im sorry for your mother's illness...

Going back to old debates about the use of vitamin c!..... 😀 
Pay attention to johan's advice! he is a very smart guy!

It is very possible that lower but prolonged doses are more effective than a few grams IV per week. For example, 10 g in 10 hours for 10 days (I remember that my friend J liked this approach). It is important to define our approach if we are looking for a pro-oxidant (confirmed good results with radiotherapy and chemo) or antioxidant (for ROS recovery). In many cases, it is more important to prolong the treatments than a high dose. . In this sense, molecular hydrogen at 3l/min seems to me to be a treatment

Regarding CBD and THC as immunosuppressants, there is a lot of controversy in this regard due to a study published in Israel where it affected the efficacy of Nivolumab
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30670598/ but there are others in primates with other results https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4046212/. Of course it's better to move on the safe side...
Regarding Prembolizumab, there are studies that suggest that when working in the "effector phase" it necessarily needs good prior immunity https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4555881/

kind regards


   
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(@dumbcritic)
Joined: 7 years ago
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@abidingtoday There are a number of ways THC/CBD can cause immunosuppression https://jneuroinflammation.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12974-016-0603-x https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0171298509000709 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006295208004589

 

One is via T-cell apoptosis (programmed cell death). Two others are an increase in regulatory T-cells and MDSCs  https://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/74/1/20.long https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0018281

 

While the two above were not related to cancer, potentially increasing those wouldn't be a good thing  https://academic.oup.com/cei/article/171/1/36/6420939 https://asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jbmr.154


   
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(@dumbcritic)
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Preclinical data on a fasting mimicking diet https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16243-3


   
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(@dumbcritic)
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Vitamin C and Cancer: Is There A Use For Oral Vitamin C? https://isom.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Vitamin-C-and-Cancer-Is-There-A-Use-For-Oral-Vitamin-C-28.1.pdf

 

I haven't read that in full, but do know from this, ''However, it has been assumed that cytotoxic levels of
ascorbate could only be achieved with intravenous infusions of sodium ascorbate [8]. This would be an implication of the available data, if oral doses could achieve only 220 mML 21 in plasma. However, we have demonstrated that single doses of liposomal formulations can give levels above 400 mML
21. If given in a single dose to a fasting individual, such intakes might be impractical. However, these preliminary findings suggest that plasma levels of 500–600 mM L 21 or more could be sustained indefinitely with smaller, but repeated, oral intakes.'' https://www.livonlabs.com/site2018/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dr_Hickey_Clinical_Study_Published.pdf


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@manuone thank you. I think the prolonged mid-range doses do make sense based on the science; and in general it does make me feel better when a treatment is not only non-toxic but something natural and understood historically to be good for the body! The things God created do seem to be best, in as natural a form as we can get them.

@manuone @dumbcritic I really have a desire to use CBD. But I do realize it might work against immunotherapy and that gives me great praise. Because immunotherapy is one of those treatments that I do not feel good about because of the high occurrences of bad side effects including tumor hyperprogression; so if she is doing immunotherapy we need to be doing everything we can to make it successful and staying away from the things that will work against it.

So I am fine staying away from CBD for now. But, we have decided that Hydroxychloroquine, while having the potential to interfere with immunotherapy, also makes it more successful through its work with TAMs. I hope this is a good way of thinking about it.

If she does decide to stop immunotherapy before the two years is up (and I’m almost certain she will - I’m not even certain she will get tomorrow’s treatment at this point) - I am wondering at what point it would be fine to start up CBD again. Seems the worst thing it would do is make the immunotherapy less effective, not increase the cancer - does that sound right? There are always so many important decisions to be made, especially when taking the alternative route like we have. We are constantly praying for wisdom and I think the Lord has given it so far. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and for those articles. It’s so nice to have the support of such a caring and knowledgeable community in this battle.


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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But I do realize it might work against immunotherapy and that gives me great praise.

great pause, not praise, lol


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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Also, I’m still a little confused about the antioxidant (medium dose oral) approach to vitamin C. I think it seems to go along with immunotherapy as far as ramping up the immune system. But could it ramp up the immune system too much? Also I’m confused about what C levels we are trying to achieve, and how, if at all, to measure them.


   
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(@manuone)
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Pro-oxidant levels are considered in values of 350-400 mg/dl....
This study that my friend Marcos shared with me, shows a method to observe blood levels of ascorbate. They propose using a glucometer to take a blood sample before the infusion and take another sample at the end of the infusion, both values are subtracted and divided by 0.9, values equal to or greater than 350 mg/dl will indicate that we are following an oxidative pattern.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3725640/


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@j she started the ascorbate powder today. It tastes awful. She hates it in the water and she hates it in the apple sauce. She isn’t a cranky person, but she is really struggling with this. I don’t want to have her take any more capsules, so I’m torn as to best way to try to administer.


   
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(@j)
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j she started the ascorbate powder today. It tastes awful. She hates it in the water and she hates it in the apple sauce. She isn’t a cranky person, but she is really struggling with this. I don’t want to have her take any more capsules, so I’m torn as to best way to try to administer.

You probably got sodium or magnesium ascorbate, that is salt. But pure ascorbic acid has a nice sour taste.


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@j oh that’s awesome news! We bought that too but didn’t open, I assumed they would be the same. Tomorrow I will give her a nice surprise. Thank you so much!


   
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(@j)
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j oh that’s awesome news! We bought that too but didn’t open, I assumed they would be the same. Tomorrow I will give her a nice surprise. Thank you so much!

Good luck to her!

Talking about supplements, I just saw an email from MCSformulas, and they have new products, all fantastic products, one, in particular, caught my attention Glutamine Inhibifour, designed with a focus on GLUTAMINOLYSIS PATHWAY. That's the type of product that can really make things a lot easier, by combining compounds that work together. Love it!

 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@j wow, that looks absolutely amazing. I was just looking for an ursolic acid. I really would love to add that. I have been so focused on what to give mom that haven’t paid as much attention to the monthly amount - one time, it’s all fine, but now that we are doing monthly, I just don’t think we can sustain this financial amount for long. I wish MCS Formulas was on Fullscript. I get a hefty discount there that makes this a little more doable. I like MCS Formulas the best, but even with the 5% discount it’s so hard. We do purchase several things from MCS each month, and plan to continue, as they have the very best products. I just wonder how long we can do it. Anyway, sorry to lament here, I am just a bit discouraged by it all today.

On another note, mom tried the ascorbic acid in water with a couple Stevia fruit flavored drops and said it was a lot better. Thank you! Do you think it will be as effective as ascorbate?

Now that I am familiar with the powder and how much she can put with a bottle of water, I wanted to see if you could help me figure out the best way to do it. She drinks 6 bottles of water a day, 16.9oz each. I thought maybe 2g in each water bottle? Would that be effective to keep her going through the day? Maybe in the last one she could do 3g to help through the night? Or would it better be taken as 3g four times? Or 4g three times? I just want to do this in the most effective way.

She also just started bromelain yesterday (500mg twice a day, once 45mim before breakfast and once 45 min before dinner) and now something is making her throat burn. I shouldn’t have started two new things at the same time. I assume it’s the bromelain and not the C but she gets confused about the timing of when it occurred. I’m going to have her skip the bromelain tomorrow to test. It would be a shame if it were that (because I think she is having some tumor die-off recently and I wanted the bromelain for that), but a shame also if it were the C. This is all so hard; but I feel like we are making good progress. Thanks again for all of your help.


   
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(@j)
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j wow, that looks absolutely amazing. I was just looking for an ursolic acid. I really would love to add that. I have been so focused on what to give mom that haven’t paid as much attention to the monthly amount - one time, it’s all fine, but now that we are doing monthly, I just don’t think we can sustain this financial amount for long. I wish MCS Formulas was on Fullscript. I get a hefty discount there that makes this a little more doable. I like MCS Formulas the best, but even with the 5% discount it’s so hard. We do purchase several things from MCS each month, and plan to continue, as they have the very best products. I just wonder how long we can do it. Anyway, sorry to lament here, I am just a bit discouraged by it all today.

On another note, mom tried the ascorbic acid in water with a couple Stevia fruit flavored drops and said it was a lot better. Thank you! Do you think it will be as effective as ascorbate?

Now that I am familiar with the powder and how much she can put with a bottle of water, I wanted to see if you could help me figure out the best way to do it. She drinks 6 bottles of water a day, 16.9oz each. I thought maybe 2g in each water bottle? Would that be effective to keep her going through the day? Maybe in the last one she could do 3g to help through the night? Or would it better be taken as 3g four times? Or 4g three times? I just want to do this in the most effective way.

She also just started bromelain yesterday (500mg twice a day, once 45mim before breakfast and once 45 min before dinner) and now something is making her throat burn. I shouldn’t have started two new things at the same time. I assume it’s the bromelain and not the C but she gets confused about the timing of when it occurred. I’m going to have her skip the bromelain tomorrow to test. It would be a shame if it were that (because I think she is having some tumor die-off recently and I wanted the bromelain for that), but a shame also if it were the C. This is all so hard; but I feel like we are making good progress. Thanks again for all of your help.

I know it adds up and amounts to a lot of money, depending on which supplement. That's why I think it's important to select a few, the one you think could be most helpful, and see what the response is. The goal is to have the cancer cells stop making more. Keep that goal in mind. What if you could do it with one cheap supplement? I am not saying you can but it has been done. Financial toxicity is a serious issue, many cancer patients and their families suffer not only from the toxic treatments but also get to find out how stressful the financial burden becomes, year after year it gets worse.

Stress is bad for cancer patients, cortisol increases which in turn increases glucose, all things you're trying to avoid.

I think 2 grams per bottle is perfect, and maybe adding an extra gram to the last one for the day, sounds great.

Some supplements are inexpensive for example melatonin, citric acid. So what treatment could you build around those two cheap supplements? Maybe add DHA, Butyrate, Curcumin, and Andrographis. That would be 6 supplements. How much would that cost? 

Another cocktail could be Artemisinin, Butyrate, Honokiol, Magnolol. You could alternate between different combinations. 

I am just giving examples, this is what I would do, alternate combinations you think look promising.

The burning feeling in the throat could be from the capsules, not the actual ingredients. It's important she takes it with plenty of water and maybe eat something right after to make sure the capsules get down to the stomach quickly. 

Write EVERYTHING down in a journal. Really, this is so important. I know it is more work but you need that information. Don´t worry about having to skip a supplement now and then. The digestive enzymes need to be taken in between meals, I assume you know but it can't hurt reminding. You can get these enzymes just from eating some papaya in between meals, which could be a nice way to alternate with supplements.

 

 

 

 

 


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

Do you think it will be as effective as ascorbate?

Ascorbic acid and ascorbate salts (e.g., sodium ascorbate and calcium ascorbate) are all considered vitamin C. Ascorbic acid converts to ascorbate and vice versa according to the pH of the fluid that they are in, such that both are present in the body. Furthermore, these forms convert to two oxidized forms in the body, semidehydroascorbic acid and dehydroascorbic acid, which in turn convert back to ascorbic acid/ascorbate. LINK

 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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Topic starter  

@j thank you Johan, your advice is always so helpful. I feel good about this oral C and I really feel like that is a very reasonable way to approach it. Thank you for helping me understand the why and the what and the how. I believe the Lord will use this to help heal mom. I love that such a good healthy thing is going into her body. It’s just awesome.

I have to put together my updated list for you. It’s.... well... a lot more than 6 things. But I really researched it. I feel like the things I picked should work together so well. I don’t know how I’d cut it down. I’ll try to post it when I can get it together just to see if you notice anything. Because it really is a lot, lol. Maybe some things are clearly unnecessary.

The bromelain, she did take it between meals, on an empty stomach, and she should have taken it with lots of water, but no food for another 30-45 minutes. And other supplements like quercetin, curcumin, EGCG, resveratrol. I wonder if she took it with the Vit C water - maybe that would have affected it and made her throat burn?? I didn’t get the enteric coated bromelain. But I am thinking she might need it. The bromelain really helps with quercetin absorption as you know. I wonder if it would still do that as well if enterically coated? And also if it would be as effective at “mopping up” the debris after tumor die-off?

I like the idea of papayas too. Not sure they are in season here in New Jersey. But I also heard that papaya leaf extract might be able to help with mom’s persistent low red blood cell/low hemoglobin/low hematocrit issue. It’s amazing how the things God created are in themselves so good for us!


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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To clarify, she took the bromelain *with* quercetin, curcumin, resveratrol, EGCG and more.


   
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(@j)
Joined: 6 years ago
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

@j thank you Johan, your advice is always so helpful. I feel good about this oral C and I really feel like that is a very reasonable way to approach it. Thank you for helping me understand the why and the what and the how. I believe the Lord will use this to help heal mom. I love that such a good healthy thing is going into her body. It’s just awesome.

I have to put together my updated list for you. It’s.... well... a lot more than 6 things. But I really researched it. I feel like the things I picked should work together so well. I don’t know how I’d cut it down. I’ll try to post it when I can get it together just to see if you notice anything. Because it really is a lot, lol. Maybe some things are clearly unnecessary.

The bromelain, she did take it between meals, on an empty stomach, and she should have taken it with lots of water, but no food for another 30-45 minutes. And other supplements like quercetin, curcumin, EGCG, resveratrol. I wonder if she took it with the Vit C water - maybe that would have affected it and made her throat burn?? I didn’t get the enteric coated bromelain. But I am thinking she might need it. The bromelain really helps with quercetin absorption as you know. I wonder if it would still do that as well if enterically coated? And also if it would be as effective at “mopping up” the debris after tumor die-off?

I like the idea of papayas too. Not sure they are in season here in New Jersey. But I also heard that papaya leaf extract might be able to help with mom’s persistent low red blood cell/low hemoglobin/low hematocrit issue. It’s amazing how the things God created are in themselves so good for us!

She could take the digestive enzymes with not only water but with some papaya, fresh or canned.

AA is a mild acid, but it is an acid so it can irritate the throat as can the capsules, yes.

Resveratrol has hormone-like properties, not always a good idea to take such supplements in cancer therapy, and it is expensive, might want to reconsider and save some money. 

I know your list is much longer than 6 supplements but I was addressing the money issue as it is relevant. I just made a quick calculation for the 6 supps I mentioned:

Planetary Herbals, Full Spectrum Andrographis, 400 mg, 120 Tablets $12.19
NOW Foods, Citric Acid, 4 oz (113 g) $3.97
Natural Factors, Stress-Relax, Melatonin, 5 mg, 180 Chewable Tablets $6.98
Doctor's Best, Vegan DHA from Algae with Life's DHA, 200 mg, 60 Veggie Softgels $20.62
Cardiovascular Research, Butyric Acid, 90 Capsules $19.99
Jarrow Formulas, Curcumin 95, Turmeric Extract, 500 mg, 120 Veggie $27.93

Total $91.68, (onn iherb)

It adds up quickly.

 

 

 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@j Thank you! I think I have 20 something supplements. I actually will probably try to post - I appreciate comments like your one on resveratrol. I will look more into that. Maybe that one has to go. Maybe replace with MCS new supplement which contains ursolic acid and caffeic acid. Most of the supplements we are using are MCS and Designs for Health - so up in the 20-50 range each. The reason I have picked the more expensive supplements is that they have so much less extra stuff, and when someone is taking 50 capsules a day, that makes a difference. So I am the maker of my own financial issue lol. I just want her to have “medicine” that is truly healing! I do like reading the supplements and brands that you recommend. I will take a look at those as well. It seems that on a lot of forums (probably mostly Facebook) this is not allowed because people call it advertising - but I think it is one of the main areas where people need help and direction! Do you think there is a chance MCS would ever be offered on Fullscript by the way? I think that would be a great business relationship for both and I know it would help me.


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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Also, for companies like MCS and DFH, it’s not just that they have less extra stuff, but the highest quality of the things we do want, and in dosages and combinations that are more therapeutic. I know it will all work out in terms of cost - this is a season, and I hope and pray that soon we will be putting together a plan for NED - Lord willing!


   
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(@j)
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

I do like reading the supplements and brands that you recommend. I will take a look at those as well. It seems that on a lot of forums (probably mostly Facebook) this is not allowed because people call it advertising - but I think it is one of the main areas where people need help and direction! Do you think there is a chance MCS would ever be offered on Fullscript by the way? I think that would be a great business relationship for both and I know it would help me.

I wasn't really recommending any brand over another just showing some different options. Labdoor is useful to check on supplements but they don't check all brands, still very useful. For example, this is their review of melatonin supplements https://labdoor.com/rankings/melatonin

I know not everybody can spend much on supplements some people can not afford $100 a month but they do have options.

You'd have to ask D about Fullscript.


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@j no, I know you weren’t. Just trying to help me see how it can be done on a budget. I appreciate that!

Anyway, I think I may have to try the enteric (coated) bromelain. I don’t know if it will work as well.


   
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(@j)
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Posted by: @abidingtoday

Anyway, I think I may have to try the enteric (coated) bromelain. I don’t know if it will work as well.

Most likely it will.

 


   
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(@jcancom)
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 625
 

AbidingToday, I understand how overwhelming trying to digest all of this information all at once on cancer can be.

Here is my quick recap from my journal into vitamin c and cancer research.

I admit that when I first investigated Vitamin C I was highly skeptical, though the more I read the more I was impressed. The citation below was particularly powerful for me. this was the original research from Pauling in the 1970s. What is especially of interest was that several of the patients reported towards the end of the article actually had their tumors turn necrotic and the patients then passed away. Surprisingly, even with such definitive evidence of efficacy, vitamin c as a cancer treatment was disputed for decades.

The Orthomolecular Treatment of Cancer II Clinical Trial of High Dose Ascorbic Acid Supplements in Advanced human Cancer. Chem-Biol. Interactions, 9 (1974) 285-315

This and many other metabolic approaches helped to see cancer from a metabolic point of view.

Below is from D's blog post: 

https://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/high-dose-vitamin-c-cancer/?highlight=vitamin%20c

My comment on this blog of April 13, 2017 at 6:41 pm  has been a real highlight in my journey to understand cancer. The insight that I had then relates to the importance of a metronomic (i.e., extended dosing) approach with vitamin C. It's the duration that is important!

Hope this comment helps! Best Wishes, Jcancom

 

 

Update November 6th, 2018: One other answer to the question about effectiveness could be related to the administration protocol of Vit C. In contrast to the days of great results reported by the Nobel laureate Linus Pauling, when Vit C was given daily in a dose of about 10g or more/day (which we could call metronomic approach), today Vit C is mainly used in high doses, given a few times per week at clinics around the world. As will be discussed in the “Mechanism” section below, these two different approaches lead to two totally different mechanism that may indeed induce totally different results in patience.

That is one point. The other point is that we have to realize, when looking at a specific case it may be difficult to conclude if Vit C helped to extend life or not. This is why clinical trials are made where statistics is generated over many patients, to understand the benefit of a drug. Looking at extensive statistics generated by Linus Pauling many decades ago, the benefits of Vit C are clear.

Combining a glycolisis inhibitor such as Vit C, with a mitochondria inhibitor such as Doxycicline seems to lead to great anti cancer effectiveness:  “Vitamin C and Doxycycline: A synthetic lethal combination therapy targeting metabolic flexibility in cancer stem cells (CSCs)

 

 

 


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@jcancom thank you so much for your comment. I have enjoyed reading your comments throughout the blog and this forum. I am still so new at this, I don’t think my comments are very thoughtful yet. I mostly end up with questions after I read someone else’s comments. I would love to hear where you are with your vitamin C pump. What is happening now? Is there any more to share? Is this something that could be available at some point in the near future? Even if not, I would really like an update on your status and current thoughts on where we are going with vitamin c and cancer treatment. As for me, my whole goal at any point in my conversations in this forum is to help one person who has done everything for me, my whole life. I also love learning, and can see staying in this field to help others; but for now, I am trying to figure out the right path for mom, for today. She started taking vitamin C throughout the day yesterday. 12g of ascorbic acid dissolved in water, throughout the day in mostly 2g per bottle of water with a little more at the last bottle. We are still working out the details. She feels good, she has more energy, she likes doing this. I was glad to see reiterated in your comments the value of oral c over an extended period of time. But the part about the patients dying after the treatment - I am confused as to how I need to be considering that. Did they die in spite of the C? That is how I originally took it. But I don’t know. Could the C have contributed to their death? I’m so confused. I can’t bear the thought of doing anything that could hurt her. I know the Riordan clinic advises at least 4g per day between treatments. But reading these Facebook group posts,  searching for every single IVC post and reading any I can find — it seems like most people aren’t doing the oral C between IVC treatments. Maybe it is because so many are scared by the seemingly contradictory comments within the groups about C, from many people who don’t understand the difference between C functioning as a pro-oxidant vs an anti-oxidant, and that there can be a place and a time for both; although not at the same time. That is just my thoughts on that. But yeah, am I wrong that not a lot of people are doing this right now? And to be concerned about that? I don’t know what I am doing, and that is scary to me. I haven’t been able to set up IVC yet (IVC is also scary to me - and not doing IVC or any other pro-oxidant treatment is also scary, but in the harm by omission type of way). What I really want, I’m not sure I can get - a reasonable expectation that her taking this oral C throughout the day each day is likely to help her and not likely to harm her. I fear I may freak out from feeling like no one else is doing this, and stop.


   
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(@abidingtoday)
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@jcancom also she does not use doxycycline because she has been having Keytruda treatments and we’ve taken extra care to make sure that her gut biome is strong (I don’t know if strong is the right word — but she has a really good microbiome right now).


   
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(@jcancom)
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Abiding, I know that there are so many questions and it does take so long to try and understand things. That is where those on forum can help you; you can bypass a great deal (though not all of the leg work) to understand how to use correct metabolic techniques. It has not been easy for us to learn these tricks; it has taken years-- hopefully we can point you in the right direction so you will not have to take the wrong turns that we did.

Remember what happened. Pauling reported success with vitamin C in the 1970s; the necrosis of the cancer mass in several of the patients essentially proves the idea behind treating with vitamin c. Yet, they then conducted clinical trials that did not faithfully replicate Pauling's trial and now 50 years later there is still confusion about vitamin C.

What needs to be understood is that there are some types of cancer that are just naturally typically vulnerable to vitamin C. They are very metabolically unstable-- something like testicular cancer. Treating them with a metabolic can cause near instant metabolic collapse and then this can result in a patient fatality.

 


   
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